GOP pushing national sales tax again

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Father Francis
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Re: GOP pushing national sales tax again

Post by Father Francis »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:21 am
Vēritās wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:53 am
Yes, we know that's the basis for the whole thing. Racism. It overwhelmingly benefits the wealthy and hurts working Americans.
I don't see how, because wealthy people buy things, too.
Any kind of flat tax hurts the poor and doesn't hurt the wealthy. It's basic math. A 6% (just throwing a number our there, and if you know how to do math and have an understanding of sociology, you'll know even a 3% tax would matter) of the poor working class budget is the difference between healthcare (think about the cost of dental work even with "good insurance") and the cost of just living in a place and being able to sustain themselves on nutrient deficient foods like ramen. Is the rich person still rich? Yes. Is the poor working person still on the edge of homelessness due to one mistake on the road or a severe medical Illness or injury? Yes.

"Wealthy people buy things too!"

The wealthy don't have to worry about the cost of final arrangements. They don't have to worry about selling mom's house to pay for her care in a SNF or assisted living facility.

Then there's the fact that they make their living off of middle class and lower class making their products available for people like their common customers.
Brack
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Re: GOP pushing national sales tax again

Post by Brack »

Most Americans are against having a national sales tax. There recently was a proposition in Arizona here that would have increased the sales tax by 0.1%. It ended up getting defeated.
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ajax18
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Re: GOP pushing national sales tax again

Post by ajax18 »

Brack wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:50 am
Most Americans are against having a national sales tax. There recently was a proposition in Arizona here that would have increased the sales tax by 0.1%. It ended up getting defeated.
Most Americans are all about spending cuts and reducing the debt, until it's a program they benefit from that is cut. That's why the US will always be in an increasing amount of debt. Proposed spending cuts will always be democratically defeated and for the most part so will tax increases. It's a flaw in democracy, which is essentially 3 wolves and sheep voting on what to have for dinner as Dr. Shades so keenly pointed out.

Even most individual households can't refrain from spending more than they earn. When you throw in the socialists, "the world owes me a living," mentality into the mix with people like that, it shouldn't be surprising that we continue to believe the lie that if you just taxed the rich there's no need in this world that can't be provided for.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
Alphus and Omegus
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Re: GOP pushing national sales tax again

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

ajax18 wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:13 am
Brack wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:50 am
Most Americans are against having a national sales tax. There recently was a proposition in Arizona here that would have increased the sales tax by 0.1%. It ended up getting defeated.
Most Americans are all about spending cuts and reducing the debt, until it's a program they benefit from that is cut. That's why the US will always be in an increasing amount of debt. Proposed spending cuts will always be democratically defeated and for the most part so will tax increases. It's a flaw in democracy, which is essentially 3 wolves and sheep voting on what to have for dinner as Dr. Shades so keenly pointed out.

Even most individual households can't refrain from spending more than they earn. When you throw in the socialists, "the world owes me a living," mentality into the mix with people like that, it shouldn't be surprising that we continue to believe the lie that if you just taxed the rich there's no need in this world that can't be provided for.
Actually, the governments of every other industrialized nation prove daily that higher taxes on people who can afford it yields much better services, including free health care. The US wastes a lot of money because many people use emergency rooms for health care. They also do not pay. The net effect is that those emergency visits cost far more than regular preventative care that they would have received in a more responsible medical system.

No one should be put at risk of life or financial ruin from an unexpected illness because they lack insurance or lose it through no fault of their own. This is basic human decency.
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Re: GOP pushing national sales tax again

Post by Gunnar »

ajax18 wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:13 am
Brack wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:50 am
Most Americans are against having a national sales tax. There recently was a proposition in Arizona here that would have increased the sales tax by 0.1%. It ended up getting defeated.
Most Americans are all about spending cuts and reducing the debt, until it's a program they benefit from that is cut. That's why the US will always be in an increasing amount of debt. Proposed spending cuts will always be democratically defeated and for the most part so will tax increases. It's a flaw in democracy, which is essentially 3 wolves and sheep voting on what to have for dinner as Dr. Shades so keenly pointed out.

Even most individual households can't refrain from spending more than they earn. When you throw in the socialists, "the world owes me a living," mentality into the mix with people like that, it shouldn't be surprising that we continue to believe the lie that if you just taxed the rich there's no need in this world that can't be provided for.
Honestly, ajax, would you really welcome having to spend 30% sales tax on everything you bought? Do you really think that the ultra-wealthy would not be able to finagle some way, including bribery of corrupt lawmakers, to somehow exempt themselves from having to pay even that tax? Do imagine that it would be even possible to enforce and collect a tax like that without a vastly expanded IRS or some equivalent tax enforcement and collection authority, let alone if the IRS is entirely abolished with no effective replacement?
Last edited by Gunnar on Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GOP pushing national sales tax again

Post by Gunnar »

Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:04 am
Actually, the governments of every other industrialized nation prove daily that higher taxes on people who can afford it yields much better services, including free health care. The US wastes a lot of money because many people use emergency rooms for health care. They also do not pay. The net effect is that those emergency visits cost far more than regular preventative care that they would have received in a more responsible medical system.

No one should be put at risk of life or financial ruin from an unexpected illness because they lack insurance or lose it through no fault of their own. This is basic human decency.
Yeah! That too! Thanks for pointing it out so clearly. And as some of us have tried to point out to ajax, those other industrialized nations you mentioned have a higher per capita standard of living than the USA currently, has, a higher average happiness, lower crime rates, lower poverty rates and a much lower disparity between the rich and poor. Maybe ajax prefers to have more poor people that he can feel superior to and look down on.
Last edited by Gunnar on Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GOP pushing national sales tax again

Post by Moksha »

The reason why Republicans generally opposed the elimination of sales tax on food is that it would inordinately benefit the poor.
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Re: GOP pushing national sales tax again

Post by Gunnar »

Moksha wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:48 am
The reason why Republicans generally opposed the elimination of sales tax on food is that it would inordinately benefit the poor.
That sure seems to be the case. Yet they claim to be followers and worshipers of Jesus Christ. How can anyone at all familiar with The Bible they claim to believe in fail to realize that few if any things were more important to Christ than compassion for the poor?

Matthew 25:40
New King James Version
And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.
This is only one of numerous examples found throughout both the Old and New Testaments. Yet when any politician gives voice to these sentiments or proposes legislation intended to facilitate them, they are excoriated and accused of being rotten socialists or even Marxists and Communists by right wing, conservative extremists and MAGA-ites. Christ himself would be similarly excoriated and condemned by them if he actually returned today! Like it or not, liberal ideals have far more in common with Christ's teachings than do the ideals and policies advocated by the majority of today's conservatives, especially the most hard right conservatives.
Last edited by Gunnar on Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alphus and Omegus
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Re: GOP pushing national sales tax again

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

Gunnar wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:32 am
Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:04 am
Actually, the governments of every other industrialized nation prove daily that higher taxes on people who can afford it yields much better services, including free health care. The US wastes a lot of money because many people use emergency rooms for health care. They also do not pay. The net effect is that those emergency visits cost far more than regular preventative care that they would have received in a more responsible medical system.

No one should be put at risk of life or financial ruin from an unexpected illness because they lack insurance or lose it through no fault of their own. This is basic human decency.
Yeah! That too! Thanks for pointing it out so clearly. And as some of us have tried to point out to ajax, those other industrialized nations you mentioned have a higher per capita standard of living than the USA currently, has, a higher average happiness, lower crime rates, lower poverty rates and a much lower disparity between the rich and poor. Maybe ajax prefers to have more poor people that he can feel superior to and look down on.
The vast majority of people who vote Republican do so because they are ignorant. Some are malicious, but most have been lied to their entire lives by fat cats who have concocted a fake populist narrative, one in which the "elites" of a society are not the billionaire oligarchs like Elon Musk or Bernie Marcus but rather professors who make almost nothing in comparison and who have zero political influence or power.

This is a totally absurd and deceitful idea, but it is persuasive to some people because they feel angry at the world for not accepting their antiquated religious beliefs. They thus become like a raging bull chasing a silly red flag instead of the matador who is trying to harm it.
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Re: GOP pushing national sales tax again

Post by Gunnar »

Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:44 am

The vast majority of people who vote Republican do so because they are ignorant. Some are malicious, but most have been lied to their entire lives by fat cats who have concocted a fake populist narrative, one in which the "elites" of a society are not the billionaire oligarchs like Elon Musk or Bernie Marcus but rather professors who make almost nothing in comparison and who have zero political influence or power.

This is a totally absurd and deceitful idea, but it is persuasive to some people because they feel angry at the world for not accepting their antiquated religious beliefs. They thus become like a raging bull chasing a silly red flag instead of the matador who is trying to harm it.
Yes, all the above ought to be so obviously true to any even moderately well-informed and fully cognizant individual that I can't help feeling a sense of both bewilderment and despair at how many otherwise seemingly literate and articulate people fail to see it. I particularly admire your "raging bull chasing a silly red flag" analogy. That is a gem! I will never forget that one!

ETA: I hope you won't consider this too much of a derailment, but that analogy reminds me of the joke about an American Tourist in a small town somewhere in Latin America who smelled something really delicious being served to the customer at the table next to his in the restaurant where he was eating. He asked the waiter what it was, and if he could order the same. The waiter replied, "Señor, that is the testicles of the bull that was killed in today's bullfight. It is only served once a day, on a first ordered first served basis, and you have to put in your order at least a day in advance to get it."

The American immediately put in his order for the next day, luckily before anyone else did, and delightedly got to enjoy it the next evening. It was every bit as delicious as he anticipated it would be, but it seemed a considerably smaller serving than he saw the evening before. When he asked the waiter why his serving seemed so much smaller than he saw yesterday, the waiter replied, "You need to understand, Señor, that sometimes the bull wins!"

I wish that in today's world the innocent, oppressed bull would wake up and defeat the "matador" who is the real enemy more often!
Last edited by Gunnar on Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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