Society is discriminating against boys, says Forbes. Brookings.edu says, "boys are falling behind"

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Post Reply
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9568
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: Society is discriminating against boys, says Forbes. Brookings.edu says, "boys are falling behind"

Post by Res Ipsa »

canpakes wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:14 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:58 pm
That's not to say that there isn't room for educational reform to help boys succeed, especially in the K-12 grades. The graduation rate is higher for girls, so it makes sense to consider whether there is anything about the structure of education that leads to higher drop out rates for boys.
I think that this is where the focus should be.

DT’s correct about some disparities in scholarship dollars/availability when comparing between men and women, and the fact that women are outpacing men in both enrollment and completion. But I don’t agree with DT’s implication that the situation for men can be best or distinctly improved by making it harder for women to enter university, or access support while enrolled.
I think of this issue in the same way that I think about structural racism. The percentage discrepancies give us good reason to look at the system to make sure there aren't something about the structure of education that is discouraging boys from completing high school, enrolling in college, and graduating from college. But we can't ignore preferences, especially changes in preferences. If we ignore preferences, then any "solution" we adopt won't actually solve the problem.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
Marcus
God
Posts: 5033
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Society is discriminating against boys, says Forbes. Brookings.edu says, "boys are falling behind"

Post by Marcus »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:40 am
Marcus wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:42 pm

So, scarcity and limited resources, what happens when you arbitrarily give one group more? think about it for a minute...
Exactly! :lol:

I am not suggesting that men should get more scholarships than women.
Omg. So, you have no idea what scarcity of resources means.
doubtingthomas
God
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:04 pm

Re: Society is discriminating against boys, says Forbes. Brookings.edu says, "boys are falling behind"

Post by doubtingthomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:46 am
The percentage discrepancies give us good reason to look at the system to make sure there aren't something about the structure of education that is discouraging boys from completing high school, enrolling in college, and graduating from college.
"Studies of gender differences suggest that girls are typically better adjusted to the school environment (Liu et al., 2016; Wang & Eccles, 2012). Compared to boys, girls are more likely to perceive higher levels of peer support and further to utilize peers as a resource for schoolwork (Ciarrochi et al., 2017; Rautanen et al., 2020). However, differences between girls and boys in perceived support from teachers and guardians are not reported as often (De Wit et al., 2011; Bokhorst, et al., 2010). Further, boys are more prone to experience rapid decreases in engagement and undergo unstable and decreasing engagement trajectories (Janosz et al., 2008; Li & Lerner, 2011), which also make them more vulnerable to dropping out of school."

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 6211058061
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 7062
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: Society is discriminating against boys, says Forbes. Brookings.edu says, "boys are falling behind"

Post by canpakes »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:44 am
canpakes wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:34 am
If there’s truly a limited number of scholarship dollars, should women be penalized for making efficient use of them?

I’m still looking for some data from you that supports your zero-sum reasoning.
:roll:

Nobody is saying that women should be penalized. We simply have to be fair when there's a limited number of scholarship dollars.
There’s that squishy language, again. ‘Fair’ based on what, and for whom?

Seems that you’d first need to determine if increasing the number of scholarship dollars to some particular level will increase enrollment and graduation rates for men. Then, bound by your ‘fairness’ - and apparently not controlling for any factor whatsoever - you’d need to pare back on available scholarships for women in order to decrease their enrollment and graduation numbers.

And to get to that point, you’ll first need to figure out what actual end result you’re trying to achieve from all of this intervention.
If you prove that the median income of young men is higher than the median income of young women when controlling for race, then you'll have a very good reason why women should be given more scholarships than men.
Without providing specifics on what age range(s) ‘young’ refers to, and without comparing against lifetime earnings, I don’t see value in chasing that request.
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 7062
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: Society is discriminating against boys, says Forbes. Brookings.edu says, "boys are falling behind"

Post by canpakes »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:15 am
"Studies of gender differences suggest that girls are typically better adjusted to the school environment (Liu et al., 2016; Wang & Eccles, 2012). Compared to boys, girls are more likely to perceive higher levels of peer support and further to utilize peers as a resource for schoolwork (Ciarrochi et al., 2017; Rautanen et al., 2020). However, differences between girls and boys in perceived support from teachers and guardians are not reported as often (De Wit et al., 2011; Bokhorst, et al., 2010). Further, boys are more prone to experience rapid decreases in engagement and undergo unstable and decreasing engagement trajectories (Janosz et al., 2008; Li & Lerner, 2011), which also make them more vulnerable to dropping out of school."

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 6211058061
None of this would appear to be affected by the perceived difference in availability of scholarship/financial aid to either men or women.
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 7062
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: Society is discriminating against boys, says Forbes. Brookings.edu says, "boys are falling behind"

Post by canpakes »

.
DT, here’s an article from about a year ago that discusses ‘young women’ earning more than ‘young men’, but including valuable context about just how often that has happened and where.
Young women are out-earning young men in several U.S. cities

BY RICHARD FRY

Women in the United States continue to earn less than men, on average. Among full-time, year-round workers in 2019, women’s median annual earnings were 82% those of men.

The gender wage gap is narrower among younger workers nationally, and the gap varies across geographical areas. In fact, in 22 of 250 U.S. metropolitan areas, women under the age of 30 earn the same amount as or more than their male counterparts, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of Census Bureau data.

The New York, Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles metropolitan areas are among the cities where young women are earning the most relative to young men. In both the New York and Washington metro areas, young women earn 102% of what young men earn when examining median annual earnings among full-time, year-round workers. In the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim metro area, the median earnings for women and men in this age group were identical in 2019.[/b] (For data on earnings and the gender gap for 250 U.S. metropolitan areas, read this Google sheet.)

Overall, about 16% of all young women who are working full time, year-round live in the 22 metros where women are at or above wage parity with men.

There are 107 metros where young women earn between 90% and 99% of what young men earn. Nearly half (47%) of young women working full time, year-round lived in these areas in 2019.

In another 103 metros, young women earn between 80% and 89% of what men earn. These areas were home to 17% of young women who were employed full time, year-round in 2019.

And in 14 metros, young women’s earnings were between 70% and 79% those of men in 2019. About 1% of the young women’s workforce lived in these metros.

In four metro areas – Mansfield, Ohio; Odessa, Texas; Beaumont-Port Arthur, Texas; and Elkhart-Goshen, Indiana – women younger than 30 earn between 67% and 69% of what their male counterparts make.
These metros account for 0.3% of the young women’s workforce. (Some 19% of young women in the workforce are employed in metros where earnings data is not available or are in nonmetropolitan areas.)

From a regional perspective, metropolitan areas in the Midwest tend to have wider gender wage gaps among young workers. Young women working full time, year-round in Midwestern metros earn about 90% of their male counterparts. In other regions, by comparison, young women earn 94% or more of what young men earn.

Nationally, women under 30 who work full time, year-round earn about 93 cents on the dollar compared with men in the same age range, measured at the median. As these women age, history suggests that they may not maintain this level of parity with their male counterparts. For example, in 2000, the typical woman age 16 to 29 working full time, year-round earned 88% of a similar young man. By 2019, when people in this group were between the ages of 35 and 48, women were earning only 80% of their male peers, on average. Earnings parity tends to be greatest in the first years after entering the labor market.

Labor economists examine earnings disparities among full-time, year-round workers in order to control for differences in part-time employment between men and women as well as attachment to the labor market. However, even among full-time, year-round workers, men and women devote different amounts of time to work. Men under 30 usually work 44 hours per week, on average, compared with 42 hours among young women.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... -s-cities/

None of this suggests the scope or urgency of male wage decline that you appear to be suggesting, nor would decreasing financial aid/scholarship dollars to women necessarily improve these stats for men ‘fairly’, either.
doubtingthomas
God
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:04 pm

Re: Society is discriminating against boys, says Forbes. Brookings.edu says, "boys are falling behind"

Post by doubtingthomas »

canpakes wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:45 am
Nationally, women under 30 who work full time, year-round earn about 93 cents on the dollar compared with men in the same age range, measured at the median. As these women age, history suggests that they may not maintain this level of parity with their male counterparts.
That's not controlling for race, as I requested.

And childless young women do make more than childless young men. A lot young childless women will never have children, so they'll continue to make more than childless men in the future.
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 7062
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: Society is discriminating against boys, says Forbes. Brookings.edu says, "boys are falling behind"

Post by canpakes »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:51 am
canpakes wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:45 am
Nationally, women under 30 who work full time, year-round earn about 93 cents on the dollar compared with men in the same age range, measured at the median. As these women age, history suggests that they may not maintain this level of parity with their male counterparts.
That's not controlling for race, as I requested.

And childless young women do make more than childless young men. A lot young childless women will never have children, so they'll continue to make more than childless men in the future.
You’re certainly free to try to select for and slice the data in interesting ways that bend the results towards your claim (show your work 🙂), but I don’t think that it’s going to refute the more comprehensive situation that the article breaks down, let alone prove that society is ‘discriminating against young men’.

But, if you’ve got the data, post it so that we can talk about it.
Marcus
God
Posts: 5033
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Society is discriminating against boys, says Forbes. Brookings.edu says, "boys are falling behind"

Post by Marcus »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:51 am
...childless women will never have children, so they'll continue to make more than childless men in the future.
Welll...I would argue that childless women will NOT be making any future men, childless or otherwise...

(Am I injecting too much logic into this conversation??)
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 7062
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: Society is discriminating against boys, says Forbes. Brookings.edu says, "boys are falling behind"

Post by canpakes »

Marcus wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:17 am
doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:51 am
...childless women will never have children, so they'll continue to make more than childless men in the future.
Welll...I would argue that childless women will NOT be making any future men, childless or otherwise...

(Am I injecting too much logic into this conversation??)
Similarly, it is true that if your biological parents never had children, then neither will you.
Post Reply