Not All Woke on the Left

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Kishkumen
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Re: Not All Woke on the Left

Post by Kishkumen »

The Republican Party is built entirely around identity politics. It's been this way since the Tea Party forcibly canceled and threw out the few remaining Republicans who were not interested in Christian supremacism.

White Christian Republicans invented identity politics when they burst onto the scene in the 1950s through the John Birch Society and Joe McCarthy. Other groups started to advocate for themselves in response as a defensive measure.
I would be very surprised if any of us who are left of center did not know this. So, what is your point? Yes, I am being a little blunt. So you are saying identity politics are bad when Republicans use them but good when Democrats use them? Or is it possible that instead they are a wonderful way to distract people from core economic concerns?
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Re: Not All Woke on the Left

Post by Res Ipsa »

Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:01 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 7:52 pm


That's not the conclusion I draw. in my opinion, that it is in issue in universities, where we educate our young people, is in and of itself important. In theory, professors should be insulated from the political issues de jour by tenure. In practice, that seems to have broken down, at least in some schools. The substitution of adjunct professors for tenured professors prevalent in modern universities makes the problem worse. The conclusion I draw is that the issue from Kish's perspective is different from that of most of the rest of us, so we should put in a little more effort into thinking about the problem.
The far right has been whining about godless, communist, politically correct, marxist, woke professors for more than 100 years. According to Republicans, American universities have been controlled by nefarious communists for decades, always supposedly just a few years from turning everyone into a violent communist revolutionary.

This nonsensical claim was the subject of William F. Buckley's 1951 book, "God and Man at Yale," which claimed that godless socialists were poisoning children's minds and that they needed to be forcibly canceled and brought to heel by authoritarian Christians.

Very obviously, if Buckley's claims had been true, the United States would have long ago become an atheistic Stalinist dictatorship. That did not happen because Buckley was fearmongering about non-Christians being allowed to have free speech and to challenge dogmatic fundamentalist notions about the Bible and evolution.

Since then, Christian fundamentalist reactionaries have repeated Buckley's grift many times, trying to scare moderates and conservatives into seeing communists under every dorm room bed.

That isn't to say there's nothing to these complaints, but rather that they are dramatically overblown. And as I said earlier, whatever merits they may have, it is obviously the case that Donald Trump and other Republicans are far more totalitarian in their ambitions and actual enacted policies.
I understand, but we're not discussing William F. Buckley or todays Christian fundamentalist reactionaries. We're discussing Kish's concerns and criticisms, which include (as I understand it) some people on the left dismissing those concerns based on debates over the term "woke." That the right has overflow the concerns doesn't mean that the concerns Kish expresses aren't actual problems or should be dismissed.

We should be able to intelligently discuss and address the issues Kish raises and respond to excesses by others. Walk and chew gum.

As an aside, this isn't a new split within the left. It's very reminiscent of the divide between many Bernie Sanders supporters and other members of the political left. Sanders message was fix the economic issues first. I think he sincerely believes that fixing the economic issues will also fix a large part of the racial and similar issues. Others within the left dismissed Sanders for allegedly ignoring issues of race, etc.

I actually don't know where Kish places himself on the political spectrum (and don't particularly care). But he is correct that there is criticism from the left of left "identity politics."
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Re: Not All Woke on the Left

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Some Schmo wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 7:46 pm
I've never been able to relate to identity politics, but that might have something to do with the fact that I'm a heterosexual male.

For a long time, I've been of the opinion that politics should never cover any topics except law and finance. I have no "F"s for what a politician's opinion is on most cultural topics. I want to know their policies on law and how they intend to manage our money, and that's it. That's supposed to be their goddamn job. Most of the insane crap people talk about under the rubric of "politics" has no business being in political conversations.

They should have no public opinion on, say, abortion, and the law should reflect that. The law should be based on the general opinion of medical experts. Politicians should be taking the advice of people smarter than they are, and then writing laws based on that information, not based on their own emotionally driven nonsense.

And of course, I blame the electorate for that. We seem to be clamoring to argue over idiotic crap like gender pronouns and Wuhan labs rather than the real problems, so the politicians are simply representing us (i. e. what we seem to want to argue over), which makes all the oligarchs in this country very happy (or, at least, feel safe for now).
This is basically how I feel.
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Re: Not All Woke on the Left

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The far right has been whining about godless, communist, politically correct, marxist, woke professors for more than 100 years. According to Republicans, American universities have been controlled by nefarious communists for decades, always supposedly just a few years from turning everyone into a violent communist revolutionary.

This nonsensical claim was the subject of William F. Buckley's 1951 book, "God and Man at Yale," which claimed that godless socialists were poisoning children's minds and that they needed to be forcibly canceled and brought to heel by authoritarian Christians.

Very obviously, if Buckley's claims had been true, the United States would have long ago become an atheistic Stalinist dictatorship. That did not happen because Buckley was fearmongering about non-Christians being allowed to have free speech and to challenge dogmatic fundamentalist notions about the Bible and evolution.

Since then, Christian fundamentalist reactionaries have repeated Buckley's grift many times, trying to scare moderates and conservatives into seeing communists under every dorm room bed.

That isn't to say there's nothing to these complaints, but rather that they are dramatically overblown. And as I said earlier, whatever merits they may have, it is obviously the case that Donald Trump and other Republicans are far more totalitarian in their ambitions and actual enacted policies.
To my shame I was not aware of God and Man at Yale, or I long ago forgot it. Yes, I agree that this is an old GOP/conservative playbook. I agree with you that the concerns are overblown. They are still overblown. That said, I have observed too many circular firing squads among liberal activists to dismiss the concern as made up and wholly irrational. I remember when a pedagogy course I was teaching came close to complete collapse because certain SJW grad students were pushing not to have certain topics taught in our classes for ideological reasons. Thankfully I had the presence of mind and fortitude in the moment to prevent their bullying tactics from dividing the class into camps.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Not All Woke on the Left

Post by Res Ipsa »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:15 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:40 pm
I don't understand why you frame economic action and "identity politics" as an either or choice. In particular, given the correlation between race and income/wealth in the U.S., it strikes me as difficult to rebuild the middle class without considering racial "identity politics."
I am familiar with the “walk and chew gum at the same time”
talking point. The purpose of identity politics is to emphasize division in order to keep people from taking up a common cause. As long as the goal is attending to individual groups as opposed to the whole, the latter of which is done by harnessing the “shared antagonism” of the different groups (Zizek), then it will be extremely difficult to make the shared economic progress that helps people unite. Success in a common cause with common, substantive benefits is much more unifying.
I don't consider it to be a talking point. I think it's a valid response to a claim that we must choose between this and that. I also disagree that the purpose of identity politics is to "emphasize division" and that it is antithetical to promoting shared economic progress. When the U.S. government built the middle class post WW-II, certain structures of society prevented large numbers of black folks from being a part of that middle class. in my opinion, that was a mistake because a much smaller percentage of black folks were invested in the importance of having a strong middle class. It seems sheer folly to me to take on the project of rebuilding the middle class while replicating the same type of racial exclusion that existed when the middle class was first built. But the same principle applies to other "identity groups" such as segments of rural America, which have also been economically left behind. If we fail to reduce or eliminate economic and social structures that prevent boats belonging to certain segments of Americans, then a rising tide cannot lift all boats.
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Re: Not All Woke on the Left

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Some Schmo wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:32 pm
The left may not be talking about M&Ms, but they do tend to entertain a lot of the talking points the right foists on everyone. In an effort to seem "balanced" a lot of left wing media is giving GOP talking points way more oxygen than they deserve. It's why I argue the mainstream media is right wing biased. A moderate network would just call the right nuts (i. e. not dealing in facts) most of the time and move on, because that's what's true.

Every time someone answers to one of these distracting topics, or topics with no basis in reality, it lends it more credibility than it warrants. Journalists and "influencers" need to stop commenting on the irrelevant and insane and just declare it insane, or ignore it altogether like you'd ignore the whiny complaints of an irate child.
Again, agreed. I think the reason for this is partly profits. Stoking mutual hatred between different camps is good for business. We should shut off these purveyors of noxious nonsense. Let’s watch serious news about core issues, not vapid, divisive garbage about celebs, conspiracy theories, and culture war.
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Re: Not All Woke on the Left

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:33 pm
As an aside, this isn't a new split within the left. It's very reminiscent of the divide between many Bernie Sanders supporters and other members of the political left. Sanders message was fix the economic issues first. I think he sincerely believes that fixing the economic issues will also fix a large part of the racial and similar issues. Others within the left dismissed Sanders for allegedly ignoring issues of race, etc.
This alleged "split" is the creation of Republican campaign consultants who want people to imagine that there is a conflict between trying to improve justice for all groups. There is not. Having health care for everyone is a goal that every other major industrial country has solved. They've similarly solved for gun violence as well. And as we saw during the pandemic, poverty is also something that can be drastically lowered by proper policy. Similarly, creating policies that create equal opportunities for people of all races while helping people who are economically disadvantaged should be the goal. Barack Obama has said that was his aspiration, saying repeatedly that he did not want wealthy people like his daughters to be beneficiaries of affirmative action programs.

It's easy for people to see only one facet of injustice if it impacts them personally, but the truth is that almost everyone experiences it, save for wealthy white Christians living in the South who lead very charmed lives.
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Re: Not All Woke on the Left

Post by Res Ipsa »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:49 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:32 pm
The left may not be talking about M&Ms, but they do tend to entertain a lot of the talking points the right foists on everyone. In an effort to seem "balanced" a lot of left wing media is giving GOP talking points way more oxygen than they deserve. It's why I argue the mainstream media is right wing biased. A moderate network would just call the right nuts (i. e. not dealing in facts) most of the time and move on, because that's what's true.

Every time someone answers to one of these distracting topics, or topics with no basis in reality, it lends it more credibility than it warrants. Journalists and "influencers" need to stop commenting on the irrelevant and insane and just declare it insane, or ignore it altogether like you'd ignore the whiny complaints of an irate child.
Again, agreed. I think the reason for this is partly profits. Stoking mutual hatred between different camps is good for business. We should shut off these purveyors of noxious nonsense. Let’s watch serious news about core issues, not vapid, divisive garbage about celebs, conspiracy theories, and culture war.
I agree with this as well.
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Re: Not All Woke on the Left

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I don't consider it to be a talking point. I think it's a valid response to a claim that we must choose between this and that. I also disagree that the purpose of identity politics is to "emphasize division" and that it is antithetical to promoting shared economic progress. When the U.S. government built the middle class post WW-II, certain structures of society prevented large numbers of black folks from being a part of that middle class. in my opinion, that was a mistake because a much smaller percentage of black folks were invested in the importance of having a strong middle class. It seems sheer folly to me to take on the project of rebuilding the middle class while replicating the same type of racial exclusion that existed when the middle class was first built. But the same principle applies to other "identity groups" such as segments of rural America, which have also been economically left behind. If we fail to reduce or eliminate economic and social structures that prevent boats belonging to certain segments of Americans, then a rising tide cannot lift all boats.
I know how you see things. You have been very clear about this before. I never said anything about seeking to replicate oppressive and exclusionary practices. The question is really one of what the core focus is. If it is on issues of identity politics, I predict failure.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Not All Woke on the Left

Post by Res Ipsa »

Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:51 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:33 pm
As an aside, this isn't a new split within the left. It's very reminiscent of the divide between many Bernie Sanders supporters and other members of the political left. Sanders message was fix the economic issues first. I think he sincerely believes that fixing the economic issues will also fix a large part of the racial and similar issues. Others within the left dismissed Sanders for allegedly ignoring issues of race, etc.
This alleged "split" is the creation of Republican campaign consultants who want people to imagine that there is a conflict between trying to improve justice for all groups. There is not. Having health care for everyone is a goal that every other major industrial country has solved. They've similarly solved for gun violence as well. And as we saw during the pandemic, poverty is also something that can be drastically lowered by proper policy. Similarly, creating policies that create equal opportunities for people of all races while helping people who are economically disadvantaged should be the goal. Barack Obama has said that was his aspiration, saying repeatedly that he did not want wealthy people like his daughters to be beneficiaries of affirmative action programs.

It's easy for people to see only one facet of injustice if it impacts them personally, but the truth is that almost everyone experiences it, save for wealthy white Christians living in the South who lead very charmed lives.
I strongly disagree. I watched the split from within the left. It was a genuine ideological divide that I think still exists.

I agree with you that it shouldn't be an ideological divide, but I also think the notion that the divide was a made up creation of the right is nonsense.
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