“I Ruined Two Birthday Parties and Learned the Limits of Psychology”

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“I Ruined Two Birthday Parties and Learned the Limits of Psychology”

Post by Res Ipsa »

In this article published in the Atlantic, an experimental psychologist discusses the hazards of using research studies as how-to manuals for life. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... ns/673846/

The author describes his own funny and cringeworthy attempt to apply the results of published psychology papers in real life. He then addresses the problem with using research papers as a roadmap for life.
We are not compiling a how-to book for life. Many of our studies fail to replicate, but even if every paper were 100 percent true, you could not staple them together into an instruction manual, for two reasons.

First, people are just too diverse. Almost nothing we discover is going to be true for every single human. In my own research, for example, some strangers became fast friends, but others spent two painful minutes asking questions like “So, uh, do you have any cousins?” and then left as soon as they could. We also study just a small slice of the Earth’s population, and there’s no guarantee that what we discover about undergrads doing studies for extra credit, or Americans taking online surveys for pennies, or Chicago commuters striking up conversations for fruit, will generalize to the rest of humanity.

Second, social situations vary too much. People did have a surprisingly nice time talking on a train in Chicago, but the same might not be true at a grocery store in Tallahassee, or in a New York elevator. The outcome might depend on whom you’re talking with, or what you’re talking about, or whether you’ll end up getting a banana.
He then goes to describe how to better understand the results of psychology research:
My advice is to think of psychology research less as a set of instructions and more as a means of refining your intuitions. If you expect talking to strangers to be a terrible ordeal, then you should wonder why study participants find it surprisingly enjoyable. It’s possible those studies are wrong. But if they’re not, what gives? Maybe you’re just part of a minority of misanthropes. Maybe the strangers you meet aren’t like the strangers on that commuter line near Chicago. Maybe you treat every surprisingly delightful stranger as an exception and assume the next stranger will be bad.

Read: How to talk to strangers

Each new finding in psychology presents an opportunity to pick out the most useful bits, learn from them, and ignore the rest. We’re already used to doing this in other contexts. When we hear a narrative, we understand that some details matter (“Brutus betrayed Caesar”), and some don’t (“Brutus wore a toga”). We know that a story shows us what can happen (“Sometimes friends turn on you”), not what always happens (“Every friend will turn on you”). And we intuit that a story’s message should be taken seriously (“Make sure you maintain your friends’ loyalty”) and not literally (“Make sure to wear a stab-proof vest”). Nobody has to tell us how to reason in this way.


Applying our story sense to psychology works because psychology is stories. Each study reports what a certain group of people did in a certain time and place––that is, it sets a scene, fills it with characters, and puts them in motion. The stories can be simple (“People who said they felt depressed also said they had trouble sleeping”), or they can be complicated (“We offered people a banana to go talk to strangers on a train, and they reported having a better time than they expected”). We use statistics to show that our stories are credible, but a little bit of math doesn’t change what’s underneath.
The article resonated with me because I often initiate conversations with strangers in all kinds of settings. And the results are very consistent with the research that the authors cite. But I don’t do it in all settings, and not all people want to chat.
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Re: “I Ruined Two Birthday Parties and Learned the Limits of Psychology”

Post by Gadianton »

Definitely an interesting topic. I think there are a couple deeper reasons for the limits though.

The first is that if life is an immersive game, then mastering it through the first-person game interface is way different than cracking the source code to find cheats that get you through. In fact, the better the information that you have, the more it ruins everything. knowing the details of how the nuts and bolts work ruin the magic of the interface.

The second is market/information efficiency. There is a zero-sum aspect to life. Not everybody is going to get the 1 promotion available at work. Only one guy can walk out of the club tonight with that one girl. And so, even in the cases where psychology is directly relevant to getting a result in a social situation, the information is easily obtainable by all participants.
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Re: “I Ruined Two Birthday Parties and Learned the Limits of Psychology”

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

I think there’s something fundamental to the OP and Gad’s observation, in that people have to experience something and then figure it out in order to to ‘get it’. We’ve all been there either through personal experience of ignoring genuinely good advice, or being ignored when giving genuinely good advice.
In fact, the better the information that you have, the more it ruins everything. knowing the details of how the nuts and bolts work ruin the magic of the interface.
In the past when I’ve been smoking and ruminating about this or that, I’ve played the ‘what would I do with myself if I were to quantum leap back in my body with the knowledge I have now’ game, like so many have played at one time or another. I eventually stopped playing because, as it turns out, I realized that life would essentially be the same as it is for me now. More money, different niche experiences, whatever, really wouldn’t change my moment-to-moment enjoyment/suffering I now experience. Sure, it’d be nice to be more altruistic, but then you have the Unintended Consequences Game to figure out. Or perhaps you choose a different path to walk, but you’re still you, as Gad said, in an immersive game and your gameplay experience won’t change that much - in fact, as he said, it’ll probably be duller (think playing CoD in god mode, fun for a hot minute, but not so great after a while).

This is why I don’t get too upset if my girls walk their own paths, and ignore my dad advice. They’re fine doing their own thing, and I’m better off staying in my lane.

- Doc
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Re: “I Ruined Two Birthday Parties and Learned the Limits of Psychology”

Post by Res Ipsa »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:11 pm
Definitely an interesting topic. I think there are a couple deeper reasons for the limits though.

The first is that if life is an immersive game, then mastering it through the first-person game interface is way different than cracking the source code to find cheats that get you through. In fact, the better the information that you have, the more it ruins everything. knowing the details of how the nuts and bolts work ruin the magic of the interface.

The second is market/information efficiency. There is a zero-sum aspect to life. Not everybody is going to get the 1 promotion available at work. Only one guy can walk out of the club tonight with that one girl. And so, even in the cases where psychology is directly relevant to getting a result in a social situation, the information is easily obtainable by all participants.
I think your second point is true in some specific cases. The guy who’s trying to sell you his pick up artist book doesn’t want you to think about the fact that all your “competition” has also bought his or similar books and that women can read those books, too. In that way, it’s very similar to expectations being proceed into the market.

But not all of psychology addresses zero sum games. Taking the example in the article, striking up conversations with strangers is not a competition for scarce resources. Improving my life experience or happiness doesn’t necessarily involve reducing others’.
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Re: “I Ruined Two Birthday Parties and Learned the Limits of Psychology”

Post by Res Ipsa »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:51 pm
I think there’s something fundamental to the OP and Gad’s observation, in that people have to experience something and then figure it out in order to to ‘get it’. We’ve all been there either through personal experience of ignoring genuinely good advice, or being ignored when giving genuinely good advice.
In fact, the better the information that you have, the more it ruins everything. knowing the details of how the nuts and bolts work ruin the magic of the interface.
In the past when I’ve been smoking and ruminating about this or that, I’ve played the ‘what would I do with myself if I were to quantum leap back in my body with the knowledge I have now’ game, like so many have played at one time or another. I eventually stopped playing because, as it turns out, I realized that life would essentially be the same as it is for me now. More money, different niche experiences, whatever, really wouldn’t change my moment-to-moment enjoyment/suffering I now experience. Sure, it’d be nice to be more altruistic, but then you have the Unintended Consequences Game to figure out. Or perhaps you choose a different path to walk, but you’re still you, as Gad said, in an immersive game and your gameplay experience won’t change that much - in fact, as he said, it’ll probably be duller (think playing CoD in god mode, fun for a hot minute, but not so great after a while).

This is why I don’t get too upset if my girls walk their own paths, and ignore my dad advice. They’re fine doing their own thing, and I’m better off staying in my lane.

- Doc
I’ve done the same thing and arrived at similar conclusions. And I’m at exactly the same place with my kids.
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When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

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Re: “I Ruined Two Birthday Parties and Learned the Limits of Psychology”

Post by Gunnar »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:51 pm
I think there’s something fundamental to the OP and Gad’s observation, in that people have to experience something and then figure it out in order to to ‘get it’. We’ve all been there either through personal experience of ignoring genuinely good advice, or being ignored when giving genuinely good advice.
In fact, the better the information that you have, the more it ruins everything. knowing the details of how the nuts and bolts work ruin the magic of the interface.
In the past when I’ve been smoking and ruminating about this or that, I’ve played the ‘what would I do with myself if I were to quantum leap back in my body with the knowledge I have now’ game, like so many have played at one time or another. I eventually stopped playing because, as it turns out, I realized that life would essentially be the same as it is for me now. More money, different niche experiences, whatever, really wouldn’t change my moment-to-moment enjoyment/suffering I now experience. Sure, it’d be nice to be more altruistic, but then you have the Unintended Consequences Game to figure out. Or perhaps you choose a different path to walk, but you’re still you, as Gad said, in an immersive game and your gameplay experience won’t change that much - in fact, as he said, it’ll probably be duller (think playing CoD in god mode, fun for a hot minute, but not so great after a while).

This is why I don’t get too upset if my girls walk their own paths, and ignore my dad advice. They’re fine doing their own thing, and I’m better off staying in my lane.

- Doc
This post reminds me or a movie or series I once watched (I forget the name, except I know it wasn't Quantum Leap, and it might even have been a novel I read) in which an organization invented a time machine which they used to go back in time to prevent or correct past events that resulted in horrible outcomes and atrocities. Every time they tried, they failed, and not only failed, but inadvertently wound up becoming directly or indirectly the cause of the very atrocity or injustice they had intended to prevent. In one case, for example, they tried to prevent the birth of Adolf Hitler, only to find out later that when Frau Hitler miscarried and lost the baby that was to become Hitler, in her sorrow and bereavement, she adopted another little baby who subsequently grew up to become The historical Hitler (or something like that. I'm somewhat fuzzy on the exact details).
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Re: “I Ruined Two Birthday Parties and Learned the Limits of Psychology”

Post by Physics Guy »

Someday maybe I'll get around to writing a near-future novel about short-term time travel, in which a secret agency sends people back in time by just a couple of days, to try to correct catastrophes. They rely on vast amounts of surveillance information, hypothetically available in the near future, to calculate as best they can what they need to do to fix the problem without causing anything worse. They have to hurry because they can only reach back those few days; they generally don't have enough time to be completely sure of their plans before they have to execute them.

They stiffen their moral courage to act in this violent way, going back in time to un-do things even though it might lead to something bad, by recognising that just acting in the present, normally, is also liable to have unforeseen consequences—and our plans for actions in the present are based on less information.

(My idea is that it all basically works, though not perfectly; they can and do change things. I'm not going to have "the time-line protect itself" or anything. Within the story, the real world will be like a story, with a plot that always runs forwards in time but that can get revised in multiple drafts. I'm most looking forward to writing the lines,
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Re: “I Ruined Two Birthday Parties and Learned the Limits of Psychology”

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Physics Guy wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 2:36 pm
Someday maybe I'll get around to writing a near-future novel about short-term time travel, in which a secret agency sends people back in time by just a couple of days, to try to correct catastrophes. They rely on vast amounts of surveillance information, hypothetically available in the near future, to calculate as best they can what they need to do to fix the problem without causing anything worse. They have to hurry because they can only reach back those few days; they generally don't have enough time to be completely sure of their plans before they have to execute them.

They stiffen their moral courage to act in this violent way, going back in time to un-do things even though it might lead to something bad, by recognising that just acting in the present, normally, is also liable to have unforeseen consequences—and our plans for actions in the present are based on less information.

(My idea is that it all basically works, though not perfectly; they can and do change things. I'm not going to have "the time-line protect itself" or anything. Within the story, the real world will be like a story, with a plot that always runs forwards in time but that can get revised in multiple drafts. I'm most looking forward to writing the lines,
You're from the future?
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If I could time travel I would use it to eliminate popular music that I despise. I have a mental list. Some of the artists would be spared by what I call the Elvis Rule. I hate Elvis' music. His voice is like nails on a chalkboard to me, however I can't eliminate him because he was such a big influence on the Beatles. I've loved the Beatles since I was 4 years old. Other artists would be spared via the Weird Al Rule. I hate Michael Jackson's music just as much as I hate Elvis, but Weird Al's success is linked to Michael Jackson. On a related note my first concert was Weird Al when I was 10 years old. It was awesome!
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Re: “I Ruined Two Birthday Parties and Learned the Limits of Psychology”

Post by Jersey Girl »

Father Francis wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 5:40 am
I hate Elvis' music.
:o
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Re: “I Ruined Two Birthday Parties and Learned the Limits of Psychology”

Post by Father Francis »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 5:53 am
Father Francis wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 5:40 am
I hate Elvis' music.
:o
He didn't write the music. You should probably be more offended that his voice offends me.
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