Talking about Racism

[Gunnar]

This is how stupid racists are, Gunnar. They confuse criticism of a group of ideas with criticism of an entire group of strangers based on nothing but their ancestry. I'm not sure how much dumber someone could be.

Yes. It is almost as if they are trying to argue that the real or greater bigotry is opposition to bigotry.

[Kishkumen]

My beef is with Republicans claiming they're conservative, because that's mostly B.S..

Indeed, they are not conservative by any stretch of the imagination. They are extremists, radicals.

[Kishkumen]

How many white folks have been murdered by chokehold on camera in the past couple of years?

This was totally heartbreaking. It is the outcome of a cruel society lorded over by a nasty and callous oligarchy.

[Kishkumen]

Yes. It is almost as if they are trying to argue that the real or greater bigotry is opposition to bigotry.

That is exactly what they are trying to do.

[Gunnar]

I consider myself conservative, but an actual fiscal conservative, not the coke-addled nonsense that passes for American conservatism these days. I don't have any beef with conservatives. My beef is with Republicans claiming they're conservative, because that's mostly B.S..

I consider myself quite progressive while recognizing that there are values and ways of doing things certainly worth conserving. I have no beef with what you seem to mean by "conservative", if I understand you correctly (which I am sure I do). We need both progressives and conservatives who are willing to honestly and amicably consider each other's points of view and expertise and learn from each other. Together they form a negative feedback loop that helps insure that society is neither stagnating and dying nor speeding out of control and "flying off the rails" and crashing. I agree with both you and Kishkumen about today's Republican claims of being conservative.

[Gunnar]

Yes. It is almost as if they are trying to argue that the real or greater bigotry is opposition to bigotry.

That is exactly what they are trying to do.

I means a lot to me to see that you approve of much of what I say. There is no one on this forum whose opinions I value more than yours! It adds to my confidence that I might at least sometimes be close to being on the right track.

[canpakes]

When people see someone who doesn't look like the people they normally associate with, they often have a visceral, biological reaction to seeing that person, and of course, the context in which they see that person matters to how they react. … To me, how you intellectually react to that anxiety is what separates real racists from not racist.

I had this same conversation with subs some years back. I believe that there’s a normal, built-in biological reaction within any critter to be wary of other critters that don’t appear to look like it’s parents. It seems like a completely rational evolutionary response. What defines the difference between this and racism is what we - as supposedly evolved and rational critters - decide to do with that reaction, given the circumstances.

I’m sure that this is a crude explanation and that I’m missing the finer points of things, but the basics seem pretty self evident.

[Some Schmo]

When people see someone who doesn't look like the people they normally associate with, they often have a visceral, biological reaction to seeing that person, and of course, the context in which they see that person matters to how they react. … To me, how you intellectually react to that anxiety is what separates real racists from not racist.

I had this same conversation with subs some years back. I believe that there’s a normal, built-in biological reaction within any critter to be wary of other critters that don’t appear to look like it’s parents. It seems like a completely rational evolutionary response. What defines the difference between this and racism is what we - as supposedly evolved and rational critters - decide to do with that reaction, given the circumstances.

I’m sure that this is a crude explanation and that I’m missing the finer points of things, but the basics seem pretty self evident.

Agreed. I suspect hardcore racists have been taught to hate leveraging that biological reaction, bypassing common sense.

ETA: I know this can be done to people. I grew up homophobic because I was taught to be, and it worked (I was open to it) because I had a built-in aversion to the idea of male gay sex. I had to reason my way out of bigotry toward gay people as a young adult.

[Gunnar]

Agreed. I suspect hardcore racists have been taught to hate leveraging that biological reaction, bypassing common sense.

ETA: I know this can be done to people. I grew up homophobic because I was taught to be, and it worked (I was open to it) because I had a built-in aversion to the idea of male gay sex. I had to reason my way out of bigotry toward gay people as a young adult.

Yet another similarity between you and me. I went through the same process myself. No wonder I like you so much!

That you and I (and other participants I greatly admire on this forum) have managed to discard many of our former prejudices and bigotry leaves me at least some faint hope that even people like ajax18 might eventually see the error of their narrow, intolerant and hateful views. But first, of course, they have to come to a realization that those views are indeed hateful and based on ignorance.

[Some Schmo]

Yet another similarity between you and me. I went through the same process myself. No wonder I like you so much!

Well, Gunnar, you're pretty much my brother from another mother. That is what I have come to suspect.

*wink*