But it's not the guns

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Gunnar
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Re: But it's not the guns

Post by Gunnar »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 9:08 pm
I've shared that previously on the board. I did have normal fingerprints. Decades of teaching in the early childhood environment, using bleach water solutions for sanitizing and disinfecting continuously throughout the day is what took away my fingerprints. I hardly ever used gloves because as I said, it was continuous. Sanitizing a drinking fountain and sink after each use and disinfect the toileting area after each use in a classroom of 16 young children as per health department regulations. That doesn't include sanitizing tables before meals or disinfecting equipment each day. So yes, chemical burns.

The first hint of this was trying to check in at the gym I used to belong to where I thought the machine was malfunctioning. Then not being able to gain entry at Universal Studios using the same type of machine. I had to use a photo ID. Then finally, the last time I was fingerprinted for a FBI/CBI background check to work in the school district again just before the pandemic broke loose. They had to wave the fingerprint portion of the filing.
Yes, I now remember you mentioning that before. Thanks for the reminder!
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Re: But it's not the guns

Post by Moksha »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 4:43 pm
Unfortunately, it’s not happening. It’s just not in the realm of possibility.
It is like we have entered into an era of mass shootings and the death toll will keep increasing.
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Dr. Shades
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Re: But it's not the guns

Post by Dr. Shades »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 3:57 pm
Dr. Shades wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 12:59 pm
How do we disarm society?
Wrong question. Asking questions like that is how we got here in the first place.
Umm, . . . You forgot to supply us with the right question.
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Physics Guy
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Re: But it's not the guns

Post by Physics Guy »

Smart guns are a good solution to the problem of somebody grabbing somebody else's gun and firing it immediately. I understand that actually is a problem for police.

I'm doubtful that smart guns can really prevent anyone but a lawful owner from discharging a firearm. We can't even make cell phones unhackable, when security features can be baked into the chips; the gun OS is physics and chemistry, and they don't implement legal ownership. I can't imagine how anyone is going to make a smart gun in which the "smart" security feature cannot easily be disabled, not in an instant just with your bare hands but within a few hours with some tools, producing a plain old stupid gun that will fire no matter who pulls the trigger.
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Re: But it's not the guns

Post by Kishkumen »

Remember that these are the same people who hated Ralph Nader, seatbelts, and other safety measures. They want the freedom to take risks and don’t understand the impact their risk-taking has on others. Republicans are a certain stripe of extreme individualist. Only when it comes to patriotism and religion do they insist on rigid community standards they are happy to force on others.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: But it's not the guns

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Turned 18, legally bought a bunch of guns, and a crap ton of ammunition, and killed a bunch of people.

In America, you can be deemed not old enough for the responsibility of renting a car, while simultaneously being old enough to buy guns willy-nilly.

Of those he killed were a 97 year old woman, and her 72 year old daughter.

https://apnews.com/article/farmington-n ... 0fc21d221e
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Some Schmo
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Re: But it's not the guns

Post by Some Schmo »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 7:41 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 1:40 pm
Ask Australia. They did it.
A cursory search tells me that AUS confiscated 650K guns in a population of 25+M people.

If RI's above post is correct, there are some 433M guns in the US in a population of 331+M people.

So...how do you propose this country go about doing the same as AUS? How you think it's possible to wrangle that many weapons out of that many civilians in the US?
I wasn't saying we should. I was answering the question, "How?"

And I imagine we could do the same things Australia did, but on a larger scale. I have no hope, however, that will ever happen in this country, because Americans have a cultural ball and chain they can't escape.

I've never owned a gun in my life, I never will, and somehow, I've managed to escape all the dangers gun nuts rant over.
And would you stop at guns?

ETA: I live in a rural area. I guarantee you that 98% of this place is armed and for good reason. We have huge lag times in response from LE and area ranchers need guns to protect livestock from predators. How would you address this issue in terms of outlawing firearms?
Better fencing.

I'm joking. I've been saying for a long time that I don't think guns should be completely outlawed. I'm in the "they should be heavily regulated / not everyone should be entitled to a gun" camp. We have stricter laws about serving alcohol than we do selling guns. It's damned insane, and most people know it.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: But it's not the guns

Post by Res Ipsa »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Thu May 18, 2023 8:30 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 3:57 pm

Wrong question. Asking questions like that is how we got here in the first place.
Umm, . . . You forgot to supply us with the right question.
Nope. The omission was intentional. Given the existence of the 2nd Amendment, disarming society is not an option. So, the right question is "How can we reduce the harm caused by the number and availability of firearms in the U.S.? That shifts us from talking about doing the impossible to talking about steps that can be taken to reduce harm.

Here are some suggested ways:

1. Require a license to own or use firearms, with training as a requirement for getting and maintaining a license. We should treat firearms training for civilians at least as seriously as we treat training of military folks.

2. Require registration of firearms so that weapons used to injure or kill can be identified and tracked. The registered owner is jointly and severally liable along with the person who uses the weapon for any liability resulting in harm to persons or damage to property. If the firearm is lost, stolen, or transferred, this liability will continue until the loss, theft, or transfer is reported to the registration agency.

3. Loss or theft of a weapon results in a civil license suspension and mandatory training in securing firearms against theft.

4. Set up a system based on worker's compensation to compensate victims of injury or damage by firearms financed by taxes on the sale of firearms and ammunition. An injured person can choose compensation from the fund or from a civil suit against the user and registered owner of the firearm.

5. LEOs may keep up to 10% of any firearms seized in connection with a crime for their own use. All other firearms seized by LEOs are to be destroyed. (In most states, they are auctioned off and returned to circulation.)

6. Implement principles of restorative justice (i.e., meetings between shooter and victim, community service in the form of providing services for people injured by firearms, etc.)

7. Treat firearm deaths and injuries as a public health issue and study causes and possible prevention of firearm violence.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: But it's not the guns

Post by Res Ipsa »

Here is an example of looking at gun violence from a public health perspective. This piece looks at school shootings. Step one is to identify the harm — all the harm. In the case of school shootings, as I think Jersey Girl has pointed out in the past, the harm goes far beyond the dead and wounded children. Once we have identified all the harm, we can consider and implement multiple strategies that can reduce the harm, as well as compare their cost. By approaching the issue from the perspective of harm reduction, we can avoid making the perfect the enemy of the good.

ETA Link: https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substac ... ing-impact
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Jersey Girl
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Re: But it's not the guns

Post by Jersey Girl »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue May 23, 2023 3:37 pm
Here is an example of looking at gun violence from a public health perspective. This piece looks at school shootings. Step one is to identify the harm — all the harm. In the case of school shootings, as I think Jersey Girl has pointed out in the past, the harm goes far beyond the dead and wounded children. Once we have identified all the harm, we can consider and implement multiple strategies that can reduce the harm, as well as compare their cost. By approaching the issue from the perspective of harm reduction, we can avoid making the perfect the enemy of the good.
Yes, the impact of trauma has a rippling effect that begins with the victims and extends itself to the witnesses, victim's families, law enforcement officers, first responders, hospital trauma teams, funeral home staff and the community at large. Complicated grief, survivor guilt, distrust of oneself and others. The impact, in my view, is immeasurable.

I doubt that trauma victims are being appropriately and immediately treated when they arrive home or to the hospital. Even when immediate treatment is delivered, there is still the risk of developing PTSD though immediate medications treatment can help stave it off in some cases.

The presumably mentally ill shooter replicates his/her self many times over by creating mental illness in their victims. All of the people I listed above should be considered legitimate victims. Because they are.
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