Modernism, Postmodernism, Meta-modernism

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
User avatar
Morley
God
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:17 pm
Location: detail from Alice Neel's 1980 self portrait

Re: Modernism, Postmodernism, Meta-modernism

Post by Morley »

Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:16 pm
I'm trying to adopt a philosophy that I'm calling "enlightened crappiness". The idea is that much of whatever impact my product is ever going to have is going to be due to factors outside itself, anyway. It'll be about exactly who finds it, and what they bring to it, and what they do with it.

So, past a certain point of effort on my part, any further improvement that I might achieve will be a small effect, anyway, compared to all those factors that are beyond my control. At that point, further work on that project will be accomplishing less than simply calling, "Cut!" and shipping out whatever it is, for whatever it's worth in the form that it has, so I can start something new.

It's going to feel, at that moment, like leaving my work in an unfinished, crappy state. I think it might be enlightened, though, because I'm beginning to think that quality as an inherent property of anything is at least partly illusion. A lot of what's good, about anything good, isn't really in the thing itself, but in what people do with it. The time to finish isn't when the thing's perfect but when it's ready for those other people to take over—or not. That I just can't control.

"Enlightened crappiness" is kind of a crappy name for the concept. So now I'm thinking it's perfect.
I second guess everything I do, to the point of neurosis. Until something is published, in someone else's hands, or formally shown, I can't leave it alone. My wife thinks I've destroyed some of my best work because of this trait. Maybe I'll try this philosophy.
Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:16 pm
(The only products that I actually produce at any appreciable rate are physics lectures and papers, which aren't exactly artistic, but I think they're pretty similar as far as this principle goes.)
If you're an effective teacher, you're truly an artist. Good teaching is honestly a performance art.
huckelberry
God
Posts: 2579
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: Modernism, Postmodernism, Meta-modernism

Post by huckelberry »

Some Schmo wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:25 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:49 pm
I do not think we abhor deviation from expectations but relationship to expectations is necessary for perception.
Deviation from expectations, in my opinion, is what causes some of the greatest moments of joy in our lives.
Some Schmo, that struck me as a delightfully accurate statement.
User avatar
Doctor Steuss
God
Posts: 1672
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:48 pm

Re: Modernism, Postmodernism, Meta-modernism

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Morley wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:35 pm
I second guess everything I do, to the point of neurosis. Until something is published, in someone else's hands, or formally shown, I can't leave it alone. My wife thinks I've destroyed some of my best work because of this trait. Maybe I'll try this philosophy.
I've always been fond of Paul Valery's statement that "A poem is never finished; it's always an accident that puts a stop to it—i.e. gives it to the public." Or, the popular paraphrase (which extends to all artistic and creative endeavors), "...it's never fished, only abandoned."

Although I fail miserably at it, that's how I've generally tried to approach stuff over the last decade-or-so, and it's been incredibly liberating. Instead of waiting for it to be finished (which, it never will be), I wait until it's ready to be abandoned. Admittedly, even the abandoned still stuff gets the George Innes treatment though.
huckelberry
God
Posts: 2579
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: Modernism, Postmodernism, Meta-modernism

Post by huckelberry »

Morley wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:28 am



It's getting so that every time I get together with old friends and grown children and we talk philosophy, politics, the future--and the world that we’re leaving those who are coming after us--we inevitably settle into that bitter silence that tastes of despair. I wake in the night with it thick on my palate and move through the day with it in the pit of my stomach. We have screwed up the world and worn out our welcome. I have the sense that we have not just killed the planet but have destroyed all the old gods and ideals.

Not long ago, I was sitting in the class of man who is a colleague and friend. I was critiquing one of the art-god theorists he was presenting. I was scathing and merciless, and, I thought, very correct and on point. He stopped the class and quietly reprimanded me. He reminded me of how easy it is to critique, but how very difficult it is to create. No theory answers all questions, but to come up with any idea that coherently addresses any issue should be valued and respected. I knew he was right.

In my own art practice, it's too easy for me to overthink the thing I'm working on. There's a point in any piece where I hate the piece and I hate myself--where I move from creation to destruction and bitter loathing. When I do this, I have to just put my head down and work on through it. I abandon thought, stifle the voice, and work on through it. I don't know of any other way out.


I don't know how we do that with the kind of world we've created. We've critiqued ourselves into a kind of vinegary paralysis. I don't know how we work our way out.
Hi Morley, you have some interesting comments. I realize that that observation, criticism is easier than actual creation, is a valuable reminder. But perhaps you should not just forget the criticism that you were thinking of. A criticism needs a bit of actual understanding of what is being criticized and a bit of creativity in the response.It has its own value. I have not kept up on art criticism in recent decades like I used to . Some I have encountered read like language disasters. Art criticism may tend to create its own usage of words and as a result become opaque to those not up to date in participation. I have heard an intelligent observer or two on occasion characterize some art description as word salad however.

I think that the world is in no danger from our activities. It will make adjustments and continue on. Some of those adjustments however will be painful for humans and force seriously painful adjustments upon humans.
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 2469
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: Modernism, Postmodernism, Meta-modernism

Post by Some Schmo »

Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:16 pm
(The only products that I actually produce at any appreciable rate are physics lectures and papers, which aren't exactly artistic, but I think they're pretty similar as far as this principle goes.)
(I'm just catching up on this thread)

Oh man, I have to say that technical papers can be very artistically written (or not). I have to read technical documents regularly, and they are not all created equally. If the goal of the paper is to communicate an idea (or several), some styles will be more effective than others, and that depends on the artistic capability of the writer (especially when it comes to resisting tech talk in order to reach a broader audience). That's one of Neil deGrasse Tyson's main skills: making complex topics understandable to a wide audience.

From your samples here, you write well, so I imagine your papers are well-written too.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 2469
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: Modernism, Postmodernism, Meta-modernism

Post by Some Schmo »

Morley wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:35 pm
If you're an effective teacher, you're truly an artist. Good teaching is honestly a performance art.
This too.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 2469
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: Modernism, Postmodernism, Meta-modernism

Post by Some Schmo »

huckelberry wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:51 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:25 pm

Deviation from expectations, in my opinion, is what causes some of the greatest moments of joy in our lives.
Some Schmo, that struck me as a delightfully accurate statement.
Thanks, huck.

I just got my wife a gift for her birthday last week that she was not expecting in the least. She's been kind of flipping out over it ever since. Total score, although I'll never be able to top it, and that is because I completely deviated from her expectations this time.

I think there might be personality types that especially hate deviation, and I can think of several situations where you don't like the applecart upset, but I don't think deviation from expectations in and of itself is always bad. Context matters.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 2469
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: Modernism, Postmodernism, Meta-modernism

Post by Some Schmo »

Morley wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:28 am
It's getting so that every time I get together with old friends and grown children and we talk philosophy, politics, the future--and the world that we’re leaving those who are coming after us--we inevitably settle into that bitter silence that tastes of despair. I wake in the night with it thick on my palate and move through the day with it in the pit of my stomach. We have screwed up the world and worn out our welcome. I have the sense that we have not just killed the planet but have destroyed all the old gods and ideals.
Man, I can relate to this. We've come to a time where many people are pointing out the benefits of not having kids, exalting in it, in fact. It feels like we're the first generation to acknowledge that not everyone should have offspring. I think a lot of people are feeling this way.

My daughter has no plans for kids (she's still young, so we'll see how it goes), but we are not in any way encouraging her to start a family. At this point, it feels irresponsible.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
huckelberry
God
Posts: 2579
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: Modernism, Postmodernism, Meta-modernism

Post by huckelberry »

Some Schmo wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:04 pm
Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:16 pm
(The only products that I actually produce at any appreciable rate are physics lectures and papers, which aren't exactly artistic, but I think they're pretty similar as far as this principle goes.)
(I'm just catching up on this thread)

Oh man, I have to say that technical papers can be very artistically written (or not). I have to read technical documents regularly, and they are not all created equally. If the goal of the paper is to communicate an idea (or several), some styles will be more effective than others, and that depends on the artistic capability of the writer (especially when it comes to resisting tech talk in order to reach a broader audience). That's one of Neil deGrasse Tyson's main skills: making complex topics understandable to a wide audience.

From your samples here, you write well, so I imagine your papers are well-written too.
I second this observation. Physics Guys comments about writing sound unusual sometimes but I think reflect a genuine involvement in the process of creation.
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 8980
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Modernism, Postmodernism, Meta-modernism

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Some Schmo wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:22 pm
Morley wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:28 am
It's getting so that every time I get together with old friends and grown children and we talk philosophy, politics, the future--and the world that we’re leaving those who are coming after us--we inevitably settle into that bitter silence that tastes of despair. I wake in the night with it thick on my palate and move through the day with it in the pit of my stomach. We have screwed up the world and worn out our welcome. I have the sense that we have not just killed the planet but have destroyed all the old gods and ideals.
Man, I can relate to this. We've come to a time where many people are pointing out the benefits of not having kids, exalting in it, in fact. It feels like we're the first generation to acknowledge that not everyone should have offspring. I think a lot of people are feeling this way.

My daughter has no plans for kids (she's still young, so we'll see how it goes), but we are not in any way encouraging her to start a family. At this point, it feels irresponsible.
Me, too. I have one daughter who is dead set against it, and another who has agonized over the decision and has finally decided to give into her nature and try for one or two. She fully understands what she’s up against by bringing a life into this world, but her biological instinct is going crazy so one or two it is.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
Post Reply