You're Wrong

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
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Tim
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Re: You're Wrong

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Chap wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 10:24 am
If you want to be taken seriously by people who have many other interesting and valuable things to do than to watch some guy they have never heard of talking on screen, WRITE IT DOWN. I have developed rapid reading skills due to my work, and in 5 minutes or so of skimming the text of your talk I would be able to gather what your main points are, and whether what you have to say is worth my further attention.
I'll be sure to let consigleri/RFM know that he isn't being taken seriously. I'm sorry I didn't publish an blog post for you. It's a podcast. I'm sorry I didn't' produce a five-part Netflix documentary for you. It's a podcast. I'm sorry I didn't create a tik tok video. It's a podcast. I'm sorry I didn't create an animated series. It's a podcast.

It's for people who want to listen to podcasts because they can do that while driving, working, cooking, or exercising and don't have time to read in that moment. Sorry I didn't make something in a format that you prefer.

If you need to get to know me through my writing first I'd probably recommend you start here with a different topic that you're already interested in. https://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2015/03/1 ... ns-part-1/
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Some Schmo
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Re: You're Wrong

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Tim wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 3:34 pm
If someone is not willing to say Bill Clinton is a terrible human being with respect to how he treats women, then they probably shouldn't be surprised if no one cares what they say about Donald Trump. An ounce of consistency and a willingness to police your own side can go a long way in calling out the moral rot on the other side.
I'm not a fan of Clinton's, and his womanizing ways did/do bother me. I don't think his character nor competency as President is nearly as bad as Trump's, but I certainly understand people annoyed by Clinton's lack of morality.

I don't have any problem saying that, because I'm not a Democrat, and I try to articulate reality as well as I can.
I think you're ABSOLUTELY correct that most of the people who complain about woke ideology can't define it past "everything I don't like". It's not really my hill to die on, I'm attempting to make an argument for people who are passionate about killing the woke boogieman. Not because I agree with their political worldview but because I want to persuade them to something different. For the most part "woke" has just replaced "commie" in our lexicon.
Agreed.
BUT, I'm willing to play along (even though you keep asking me to defend arguments I'm not making). I would define "woke" as "a religious-like pursuit of diversity, equity, and inclusion to the detriment of all other virtues."
That's much better than I was expecting. Good on you.

Did you mean to use the word "equity" instead of "equality?" I've never heard a progressive once say they were fighting for "equity." It's always equality, or equal opportunity. Equity comes from what you do with your opportunities.

Tell me this: what virtues are negatively affected by the pursuit of diversity, equity, equality, and inclusion?

And as a follow up: are the detriments to "other virtues" worth risking American democracy?
For the average MAGA "woke" just means "anything progressive liberals believe".
Agree again.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
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Tim
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Re: You're Wrong

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Equality and Equity are often confused. I meant "Equity". As can be seen here
https://diversity.uiowa.edu/resources/dei-definitions

Do a search for D. E. I. and it will always include equity which means "equal outcomes" whereas equality means "equal opportunities"
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Tim
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Re: You're Wrong

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Some Schmo wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 4:09 pm

And as a follow up: are the detriments to "other virtues" worth risking American democracy?
I HIGHLY recommend "The Righteous Mind" by Jonathan Haidt. The "other" virtues that are abandoned are things like individual liberty, trust, loyalty, and purity. Pursuing ANY virtue to the exclusion of other virtues leads to the death of a culture. Vice is always found in the myopic pursuit of a single virtue. In order to be culturally healthy we need to pursue all virtue.

I want Trumpism and all other forms of authoritarianism defeated. The progressive left offers a different form or authoritarianism than Trump's right wing nationalism
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: You're Wrong

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Tim wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 8:24 pm
I'm a podcaster and I thought I'd share my work with all-y'all. I talk about anything that you're not allowed to talk about in polite company. I put quite a bit of work into my latest episode. It's about how there can no longer be a reluctant Trump voter.

https://thewrongpodcast.com/2023/05/epi ... ath-of-me/
Added to my queue in Google Podcast. I'm binging on Serial right now, but once done, this will be next.

Thank you for sharing Tim.
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Tim
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Re: You're Wrong

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Some Schmo wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 4:09 pm
BUT, I'm willing to play along (even though you keep asking me to defend arguments I'm not making). I would define "woke" as "a religious-like pursuit of diversity, equity, and inclusion to the detriment of all other virtues."
That's much better than I was expecting. Good on you.

Great, I'm assuming I earned your "listen". ;) I recommend listening at 1.5 speed.

https://thewrongpodcast.com/2023/05/epi ... ath-of-me/
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canpakes
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Re: You're Wrong

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Some Schmo wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 4:09 pm

Did you mean to use the word "equity" instead of "equality?" I've never heard a progressive once say they were fighting for "equity." It's always equality, or equal opportunity. Equity comes from what you do with your opportunities.
To go along with Tim’s link, this graphic sums it up pretty well. Equity seeks to address specific differences between individuals with tailored resources, instead of providing all individuals regardless of circumstance with the same resources.

Image
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Some Schmo
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Re: You're Wrong

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Tim wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 4:40 pm
I HIGHLY recommend "The Righteous Mind" by Jonathan Haidt. The "other" virtues that are abandoned are things like individual liberty, trust, loyalty, and purity. Pursuing ANY virtue to the exclusion of other virtues leads to the death of a culture. Vice is always found in the myopic pursuit of a single virtue. In order to be culturally healthy we need to pursue all virtue.
Agreed in principle, although there has to be a consensus on what really is virtuous, and I'm not sure we're there as a country. Given that the political sides tend to talk past each other 99% of the time, I don't see a consensus being reached any time soon. So everyone values their own thing, fights for their own thing, and wonders why we never agree on much.

I'm aware of Haidt and have been meaning to read that book. I like what he has to say on a lot of subjects.

I'll give your podcast a try.
I want Trumpism and all other forms of authoritarianism defeated. The progressive left offers a different form or authoritarianism than Trump's right wing nationalism
Yes. The authoritarianism on the left you are talking about is a minority community of online voices. They're "influencers." They aren't actual congress people trying to undermine democracy like there are on the right. The progressive left isn't that huge a group, and not that influential in congress. It seems to me most people are somewhere in the middle.

I can't get past a party trying to restrict our freedom in very real, observable ways. America stands for nothing if not freedom. I have to put up with loose gun laws like the right has to put up with democracy. The right demonstrates obvious disdain for democracy these days. The attitudes expressed toward voting access (voter fraud!! voter fraud, I say!!) aren't cool for anyone who cares about democracy. There's no longer small differences on policy in government these days. One party wants to get rid of democracy so they can rule as authoritarians. Ron DeSantis is already acting like the little dictator of Florida. And I know they have this attitude because their policies are mostly unpopular, where they've been articulated at all. They can't win fair elections, so they whine about fraud and election rigging. It's so transparent and pathetic, I can't understand how anyone can ignore it. Perhaps that's just what I happen to care about, so it's what I fight for. I can't vote for any Republican while they won't stand unified for democracy. Full stop.

I don't relish voting for Democrats. It's totally a defensive move on my part, by far, the lesser of two evils. A loud, vocal contingent of the GOP represents an existential threat to the American experiment. January 6th should have taught everyone that.

But anyway, yeah, I'll try your podcast.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

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Some Schmo
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Re: You're Wrong

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Tim wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 4:34 pm
Equality and Equity are often confused. I meant "Equity". As can be seen here
https://diversity.uiowa.edu/resources/dei-definitions

Do a search for D. E. I. and it will always include equity which means "equal outcomes" whereas equality means "equal opportunities"
Well, I've never been exposed to that definition, and it seems a little hair-splitting to me. I think the goal is noble, however.

As with anything new that people try, any new craze, people tend to overdo it. I expect this crap to balance out as people put it in perspective, and I don't see the attempt as an existential threat to our American democracy the same way I see people storming the capitol an actual threat.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
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Tim
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Re: You're Wrong

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I agree with you that seditiously storming the Capitol is the very worst of American politics. Nothing compares. It's an existential threat to our democracy if it's allowed or dismissed.
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