Lying is the Root of all Religion

[Some Schmo]

I wasn't quoting the Bible. I was quoting the expression I've heard my whole life.

[Res Ipsa]

I wasn't quoting the Bible. I was quoting the expression I've heard my whole life.

Fair enough. If that's the case, it's not really even black and white reasoning, given that we all use money. The version of the saying you use doesn't divide people into two tribes. But "religion" does because not all people are religious believers.

[Some Schmo]

I wasn't quoting the Bible. I was quoting the expression I've heard my whole life.

Fair enough. If that's the case, it's not really even black and white reasoning, given that we all use money. The version of the saying you use doesn't divide people into two tribes. But "religion" does because not all people are religious believers.

I understand your point, but some people actually do worship money, spending all their energy accumulating it, and might be offended by someone claiming their motivation was evil. That doesn't prevent people from saying or thinking it. The question is whether or not it represents some kind of fundamental truth.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Fair enough. If that's the case, it's not really even black and white reasoning, given that we all use money. The version of the saying you use doesn't divide people into two tribes. But "religion" does because not all people are religious believers.

I understand your point, but some people actually do worship money, spending all their energy accumulating it, and might be offended by someone claiming their motivation was evil. That doesn't prevent people from saying or thinking it. The question is whether or not it represents some kind of fundamental truth.

Well. It probably represents consumerism, overacquisition, hoarding, which is all rooted in some form of selfishness, I suppose. Look at what it's doing to our planet. We're absolutely brutalizing the very thing we need to live. That's, at its core, evil, because, and I'm taking a stab at this with pop psychology, but God is good, God is life, and if selfishness is the root of evil and our own destruction, then money is at the root of it since it's the medium through which humans exercise power.

- Doc

[Res Ipsa]

Fair enough. If that's the case, it's not really even black and white reasoning, given that we all use money. The version of the saying you use doesn't divide people into two tribes. But "religion" does because not all people are religious believers.

I understand your point, but some people actually do worship money, spending all their energy accumulating it, and might be offended by someone claiming their motivation was evil. That doesn't prevent people from saying or thinking it. The question is whether or not it represents some kind of fundamental truth.

Hmm. There's a lot there to unpack.

First, the language you are using says nothing about people worshipping money for spending all their energy accumulating it. It says "money." So, I still don't see how "money" divides people into two distinct categories the way that "religion" does.

Second, "worship" is a loaded term. It takes behavior relevant to theists and applies it to something that has nothing to do with religion. So, we're comparing pineapple and salami instead of pineapple and pineapple.

Third, none of my criticism of things you've posted in this thread has anything to do with offense. It has to do with demonizing an outgroup by asserting they are either crazy or liars.

Fourth, does it represent a fundamental truth? You'd have to show me. I think I can provide lots of examples of people doing evil things that weren't motivated by money.

[Res Ipsa]

I understand your point, but some people actually do worship money, spending all their energy accumulating it, and might be offended by someone claiming their motivation was evil. That doesn't prevent people from saying or thinking it. The question is whether or not it represents some kind of fundamental truth.

Well. It probably represents consumerism, overacquisition, hoarding, which is all rooted in some form of selfishness, I suppose. Look at what it's doing to our planet. We're absolutely brutalizing the very thing we need to live. That's, at its core, evil, because, and I'm taking a stab at this with pop psychology, but God is good, God is life, and if selfishness is the root of evil and our own destruction, then money is at the root of it since it's the medium through which humans exercise power.

- Doc

I think you're getting closer to something fundamental, but I wouldn't blame the medium -- I'd blame whatever is using the medium.

[Some Schmo]

Well. It probably represents consumerism, overacquisition, hoarding, which is all rooted in some form of selfishness, I suppose. Look at what it's doing to our planet. We're absolutely brutalizing the very thing we need to live. That's, at its core, evil, because, and I'm taking a stab at this with pop psychology, but God is good, God is life, and if selfishness is the root of evil and our own destruction, then money is at the root of it since it's the medium through which humans exercise power.

Agreed.

I remember when I was a teenager at a boy scout jamboree, I had what I thought was an epiphany at the time, that all sin was based in selfishness. I gave a little talk on it at that Sunday's service.

I still believe that, although I don't call them "sins" anymore. But yeah, it seems to me "money" in that expression is just a proxy for selfishness.

[Res Ipsa]

Well. It probably represents consumerism, overacquisition, hoarding, which is all rooted in some form of selfishness, I suppose. Look at what it's doing to our planet. We're absolutely brutalizing the very thing we need to live. That's, at its core, evil, because, and I'm taking a stab at this with pop psychology, but God is good, God is life, and if selfishness is the root of evil and our own destruction, then money is at the root of it since it's the medium through which humans exercise power.

Agreed.

I remember when I was a teenager at a boy scout jamboree, I had what I thought was an epiphany at the time, that all sin was based in selfishness. I gave a little talk on it at that Sunday's service.

I still believe that, although I don't call them "sins" anymore. But yeah, it seems to me "money" in that expression is just a proxy for selfishness.

If you substitute "selfishness" for "money," I think that gets at something more fundamental.

Here's what I think causes lots of evil, although I wouldn't claim it is either a necessary or sufficient cause for people doing evil things: the combination of hyper-individuality and free market mythology. Given the effect that each of us has on others -- including a great deal of effect that we are not conscious of giving or receiving, I think it's a fundamental mistake to view ourselves as being individuals completely distinct from others.

But I would classify that as simply a mistake in thinking that doesn't necessarily result in betterment or detriment. It is free market mythology -- the notion that each of us acting out of 100% selfishness magically results in the best of all possible worlds -- that generates evil results. And that selfishness includes using the power of groups to obtain selfish ends.

But it doesn't make for a pithy saying.

[Some Schmo]

First, the language you are using says nothing about people worshipping money for spending all their energy accumulating it. It says "money." So, I still don't see how "money" divides people into two distinct categories the way that "religion" does.

Well, "money" is replaced by "lying," not "religion."

But I acknowledge your point about the emotional attachment to the word "lying" so I'm fine making the statement, "Saying false things is the root of all religion."

Second, "worship" is a loaded term. It takes behavior relevant to theists and applies it to something that has nothing to do with religion. So, we're comparing pineapple and salami instead of pineapple and pineapple.

I just meant worship in the sense of "regarding something as extremely important to someone." People don't all see money the same way, just like people don't all see food the same way. We all need both, but only to a certain extent. People who accumulate too much of either have a problem, in my opinion, and not everyone is like that.

Money certainly does divide people... into the haves and have nots.

Third, none of my criticism of things you've posted in this thread has anything to do with offense. It has to do with demonizing an outgroup by asserting they are either crazy or liars.

As I've said before, I don't consider religious people an outgroup, and I mostly sympathize with people attached to their religion. It doesn't change the fact that living a religious life requires people to believe and repeat falsehoods.

Fourth, does it represent a fundamental truth? You'd have to show me. I think I can provide lots of examples of people doing evil things that weren't motivated by money.

Well, we can get into a whole discussion on the pros and cons of generalizations. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. I just wonder how much traction the expression would have gotten over time if it was flat out BS.

[Some Schmo]

Fourth, does it represent a fundamental truth? You'd have to show me. I think I can provide lots of examples of people doing evil things that weren't motivated by money.

Well, we can get into a whole discussion on the pros and cons of generalizations. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. I just wonder how much traction the expression would have gotten over time if it was flat out BS.

It just occurred to me that I'm defending the truth of a partial statement in the Bible and RI is intimating it's not true.

hehe