Interview with Schmo

[msnobody]

I consider myself one who disagrees with people who claim a god exists. People say a god exists. Others believe in several. I simply disagree, primarily because I've never heard a good reason to believe any god exists, nor have I ever heard a believable god described.

So I'm a disagree-er. Disagreeism on the question of theism?

You couldn't have come closer than that to describing how I now feel about the existence of God.

I don't think I could ever honestly claim that I had a firm testimony that the LDS Church, though I tried hard to acquire one, because everyone I loved the most expected that of me. Eventually I came to the realization that Moroni's Promise in Moroni 10:3-5 and Alma's advice in Alma 32 for how to gain a firm testimony of the truth of both the church and the Book of Mormon were nothing more than prescriptions for how to go about deluding oneself.

Unlike you, though, I did enjoy much of the cultural activities associated with the Church, and even much of the music. I often served as chorister in leading the singing, especially in priesthood meetings, and knew by heart and could sing all four parts, from bass to soprano, of many of the most popular hymns in the official LDS hymnbook. My voice used to have that much range. It took me a bit longer than you, though, to become disillusioned with the Church and with religion in general. I guess I'm not quite as smart as you are.

Alma 32 is what some recent missionaries had me read. I thought at about verse 16, the text seemed manipulative.

[Some Schmo]

You couldn't have come closer than that to describing how I now feel about the existence of God.

I don't think I could ever honestly claim that I had a firm testimony that the LDS Church, though I tried hard to acquire one, because everyone I loved the most expected that of me. Eventually I came to the realization that Moroni's Promise in Moroni 10:3-5 and Alma's advice in Alma 32 for how to gain a firm testimony of the truth of both the church and the Book of Mormon were nothing more than prescriptions for how to go about deluding oneself.

I remember asking my dad once, "Can't we convince ourselves of anything?" We weren't talking about church at the time, so he said, "Absolutely!" So I said, "Then doesn't that mean we could trick ourselves into believing the church is true?"

All he could say was, "Well it is true, so you're convincing yourself of the right thing."

I remember being just a tad disappointed in my dad.

Unlike you, though, I did enjoy much of the cultural activities associated with the Church, and even much of the music. I often served as chorister in leading the singing, especially in priesthood meetings, and knew by heart and could sing all four parts, from bass to soprano, of many of the most popular hymns in the official LDS hymnbook. My voice used to have that much range. It took me a bit longer than you, though, to become disillusioned with the Church and with religion in general. I guess I'm not quite as smart as you are.

I don't think I'm any smarter than you are, Gunnar. You have to remember that because I disliked church culture so much, I was looking for reasons to leave. If you'd asked me when I left the church if I thought it was true, my honest answer at the time would have been, "Don't know, and don't really care."

ETA: I meant to say, if I had liked going to church, who knows how long it would have been before I started questioning it. I'd like to think it wouldn't be different, but that sounds like an attempt to kid myself.

[Some Schmo]

I'm so sorry I couldn't get back here to go through your post, Schmo. I hit a few in real life bumps in the road and just didn't have it in me. I think I did make a post during that time but I don't even remember what it was!

So let's go and see what you have here. Apologies in advance if I mess up the formatting here.

It all looked good to me.

Wow that was bold of him to say. (I know what a fireside is but have never been to one.) So I think what you're saying here is that you heard someone for the very first time kind of smart off at Mormonism and it triggered something for you. I think I get that. In my first years on an online forum, I recall atheists raising issues that I'd never considered before. So what that triggered in me, was a strong desire to learn more and I did. Also I want to say this. I spent a good 10 to maybe 15 year period totally away from church. I wanted nothing to do with it at all. During that time I did everything I wasn't supposed to do. Call it a period of rebellion if you want. I call it turning away. The thing is is that I thought God didn't care about me at all and if you think about it, I never really lost belief in God. I just thought he didn't care about me so I kind of, well, I guess I said screw you. I think there was a lot of unpacked psychological baggage involved in that whole thing.

When I left the church, I did the same thing. Broke all the rules I'd been following for years (mostly with respect to the Word of Wisdom). After I got that out of my system, I settled into a healthier lifestyle, but it was one I chose, not one capriciously assigned without any scientific backing.

I still believed in god in those years too. It wasn't until I got to the Mormon forums that I started doing the real work of questioning the stuff I'd learned growing up, including the god idea. That's when I started realizing everybody has a different god idea, and that because there is no objective god we can all point to, we are free to create whatever god we want/need. It's when I started realizing that I had, indeed, made up my own god.

When discussing LDS culture, I used to refer to that as "window dressing". I was close friends with an LDS woman and I vividly recall her cussing her kids out on a Saturday night because she had so much pressure on her for Sunday. She taught Primary at the time (was later Primary President) and didn't prepare her lessons until the kids went to bed the night before, often running out late at night to make copies or whatever. When she and I would talk I remember her telling me, "Sometimes I sit in church, look around, and think about how much I hate all of them". That was a stark contrast to how I felt about the congregation I was in though for sure my church had it's own stuff going on.

I wonder how common that is. I mean, it's hard to imagine I was the only Mormon looking around and cringing at the community in which they find themselves. There have to be many more like this Primary teacher.

My question is, doesn't that lead you to question the religion? It sure did for me. I just couldn't process the idea that this community was the one favored by the creator of the universe. Surely, if he could see all, he saw the same fakeness and hypocrisy I, a mere mortal, could see.

One small one though. Her daughter is the reason I went up against my own pastors at one point. Her daughter and my own child attended each other's church. One Wednesday night her daughter was at a youth activity with my child. One of the adults leading the group said that 'Mormon's don't believe in God'. I have no idea how the topic came up but when my lady friend drove the kids home, she called me as soon as she landed to tell me that her daughter was crying hysterically. I could hear her in the background when she said 'All those Baptists are bitches!' and crying from her little gut. I immediately told my friend to hang up and I'd call her back. Then I dialed the church number and scheduled a meeting for the next day with the youth pastor. Called her back and told her that. Went to the meeting and pretty much lit into him. During that time he made several comments such as 'Well, they don't believe in God', 'The goal of a Mormon woman is to become an eternal incubator'. I maintained my cool but inside I was reeling, so pissed off! Suffice it to say that I humbled him in my own way and got him to admit that the comment was inappropriate and that the family was due an apology. Anyway, called my lady friend and told her the whole discussion but left out those insulting parts. Then...she asked me 'Jersey, did he tell you that you couldn't be friends with me?'...and THAT Is when my attenna went up. I told her no, that he didn't have that kind of authority over me. Anyway, she was crying and I think pretty appreciativ3e that I would do what I did. She didn't want the apology and she didn't want to return to our church but she did here and there. I couldn't forget her comment and wondered if her Bishop could tell her not to be friends with someone even though she had free agency. It didn't sit right with me.

I've said it here before, but I'll say it again: stories like this always amuse me (inter-faith disputes) because it reminds me of Star Trek and Star Wars fans arguing over which franchise is better. Speculating on God's motivation is like arguing over Darth Vader's goals.

Still, good on you for getting in that guy's face. Comments like his are beyond stupid, especially made to children. It boarders on emotional abuse.

And THAT, Schmo is how I ended up online investigating Mormonism starting with RFM and then finally landed on my first board where I stayed for 10 years. I've said this before, but my first post ever made online was to Gunnar. That's one of the reasons he is so special to me to this very day and how we know each other so well. We're going on 24 years of knowing each other this October 14th.

Well, Gunnar's one of the most reasonable people I've ever met online, so that's a very fortunate first meeting.

I think I see this differently. One thing though, where you say, If someone wants to sell me on being a good person, sell me on the practical, real world benefits of being a good person, and I'll do it. Virtually every church I was a member of taught life applications. I don't know of the LDS Church does that. I would categorize that as showing the beneits of being a good person...though I don't think it's all about being a good person...it's about following the teachings of Christianity. If that makes sense. Bringing oneself into line with God, obedience, and developing the qualities of Christ that we see presented in the New Testament. Reflecting Christ.

We certainly do see this differently.

The church I grew up in was not big on offering practical reasons for things. It was a lot of because god commanded it, end of story.

You said, "...though I don't think it's all about being a good person...it's about following the teachings of Christianity." What is the "it" in the phrase "it's all about being a good person?" Morality? Religion? Life? Success?

To me, the point of religion was to live a moral life so you could be with the creator again. "Moral person" = "Good person." I think Christianity is a fail if the point is to just emulate a historical guy rather than try to make the world around you a better place.

Schmo...lean in. Pineapple on pizza is just not done. It's gross. Stop it.

Listen, if this is a contest between pineapple and pizza, pineapple is going to win every time. I could go the rest of my life never eating pizza again, but no pineapple? “F” that noise!

I feel like we might have done this before but the questions and answers are a bit different. I like it very much! Too much probably. I blame my personality type.

I remember many years ago thinking that our original conflicts had a lot to do with the both of us having similar personalities. I'm sure I told you that at some point.

I loved this conversation.

I think it depends on how you define religious. Definitely spiritual. Nailed me. Also intuitive. I rely heavily on intuition.

Religious: thoughtlessly following a bunch of rules as dictated by religious content creators. Also making sure everyone is aware of your religion because you think it makes your life easier.

Spiritual: Thinking and contemplating your way to a moral life. Sincerely caring about other people. Discarding dogma in favor of addressing real-world circumstances.

As I've said, you can't do both.

I consider myself one who disagrees with people who claim a god exists. People say a god exists. Others believe in several. I simply disagree, primarily because I've never heard a good reason to believe any god exists, nor have I ever heard a believable god described.

So I'm a disagree-er. Disagreeism on the question of theism?

Fair enough I think! That's interesting how you articulated that! I feel like I had another follow up question in my head the other day for this thread but it fell out. If it falls back in I'll pose it to you!

Given that people attribute certain ideas to atheists that are, well, outrageous, I'd rather avoid the label at all costs. I also disagree with people who say Bigfoot exists, but would never call myself "abigfootist." I simply disagree with that idea. It leaves me open to new evidence.

But yeah, if rereading this triggers your memory, let me know.

[Some Schmo]

I see there are other posts you made that warrant reply. I'll get to those!

Obviously I took a little break from the board, so there was no rush. But I'm here now, so...

p.s. Gunnar is simply sucking up to you. I hope you know that by now. He's so obvious.

I'm confident Gunnar knows he needn't suck up to me for me to respect him. I take him at his word that he's simply come to the same conclusions I have.

I already complimented Gunnar's intelligence. Smart people do smart things. (insert appropriate emoji)

[Philo Sofee]

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and learning about Schmo! Thanks for sharing so much with us Schmo, and for asking good questions JerseyGirl!

[Gunnar]

p.s. Gunnar is simply sucking up to you. I hope you know that by now. He's so obvious.

I'm confident Gunnar knows he needn't suck up to me for me to respect him. I take him at his word that he's simply come to the same conclusions I have.

I'm fairly confident that my dear friend Jersey Girl realizes that even better than you do. If she doesn't tease me once in a while I would fear that I was beginning to lose her friendship and respect.

I already complimented Gunnar's intelligence. Smart people do smart things. (insert appropriate emoji)

Now who's "sucking up?"

Seriously, though, I am both humbled and flattered by your high opinion of me and aspire to at least occasionally deserve it, my friend.

[Jersey Girl]

I'm confident Gunnar knows he needn't suck up to me for me to respect him. I take him at his word that he's simply come to the same conclusions I have.

I'm fairly confident that my dear friend Jersey Girl realizes that even better than you do. If she doesn't tease me once in a while I would fear that I was beginning to lose her friendship and respect.

I already complimented Gunnar's intelligence. Smart people do smart things. (insert appropriate emoji)

Now who's "sucking up?"

Seriously, though, I am both humbled and flattered by your high opinion of me and aspire to at least occasionally deserve it, my friend.

Get a room!

[Res Ipsa]