where is there freedom

[Manetho]

There genuinely is an effort afoot to keep Trump off the ballot based on the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, which says:

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

The well-respected legal authorities J. Michael Luttig and Laurence Tribe (the former a conservative, the latter a liberal) have argued that this use of the amendment is legally valid, and an attempt to use it has been put forward in Michigan. But Trump hasn't been charged with, let alone convicted of, insurrection, and I don't think these challenges will hold up in court while that is the case. Luttig and Tribe have argued that this clause of the Constitution is "self-executing," because when it originally went into effect, it wasn't difficult to tell who had participated in the Civil War and should therefore be excluded from office. But a lot of people refuse to see Trump's attack on Congress as an insurrection, so any such claim would have to be hashed out in court. None of the people prosecuting Trump charged him with insurrection, probably because it's more difficult to legally prove than his other crimes, so I don't see this effort going anywhere.

The best we can expect is for Trump to go into November 2024 as a convicted felon, appear on the ballot in all 50 states, lose overwhelmingly, and rot in prison for the rest of his miserable life. Letting him run is very hazardous; if he does win, he will try his damnedest to tear down every institution that restrained him during his first term, which probably means either the collapse of American democracy or a second civil war. But I don't think we have a choice.

[Moksha]

But Trump hasn't been charged with, let alone convicted of insurrection, and I don't think these challenges will hold up in court while that is the case.

Excellent point. Simply having a mob storm the Capitol and smash their way inside with the intent to overthrow the result of the election (and hang the Vice President for holding the elector count) hardly seems like an insurrection. Trump simply wanted a new form of government with himself as ruler for life. That hardly rises to the charge of an insurrection. Trump's supporters want him to be on the Iron Throne and rule for a thousand years.

[huckelberry]

But Trump hasn't been charged with, let alone convicted of insurrection, and I don't think these challenges will hold up in court while that is the case.

Excellent point. Simply having a mob storm the Capitol and smash their way inside with the intent to overthrow the result of the election (and hang the Vice President for holding the elector count) hardly seems like an insurrection. Trump simply wanted a new form of government with himself as ruler for life. That hardly rises to the charge of an insurrection. Trump's supporters want him to be on the Iron Throne and rule for a thousand years.

We all saw the violent attack on the capitol and we saw Trump's inflammatory speech. Whether that can result in a conviction of insurrection is questionable. I certainly see him as morally responsible but I do not know if that can come together in a legal way. Even if convicted of attempted conspiracy to illegally manipulate votes and election ,insurrection conviction is another hurdle.

I do not wish to recommend complacency or ignore danger. I just think realistic specifics are better to be prepared for. I do not think Trump can dismantle many government systems. Without them he would have no way to implement his wishes. Eat hamburgers and rant at people in the room is Trump like but not powerful.I do think he could if reelected damage democracy and the country. History is long and damages do not have to last for ever.

Start thinking of comeback means in case he wins reelection. Despair of democracy and expect civil war are not the best strategies I suspect.

[ajax18]

I do think he could if reelected damage democracy and the country

What do you mean by damage democracy? Isn't democracy just a system where people are given the responsibility to choose leaders. I think Bernie Sanders would do incredible damage to the economy, the military, and US influence in the world. But I can't say he destroyed Democracy given there were enough people who voted for him. Just because I don't like what the majority chooses doesn't mean democracy was destroyed.

Joe Biden has done enormous damage to democracy with his partisan prosecution of his likely political opponent. This is what election interference and damage to democracy looks like. Leftists aren't for democracy, they're for socialism and open borders by any means necessary regardless of what the majority wants.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I do think he could if reelected damage democracy and the country

What do you mean by damage democracy? Isn't democracy just a system where people are given the responsibility to choose leaders. I think Bernie Sanders would do incredible damage to the economy, the military, and US influence in the world. But I can't say he destroyed Democracy given there were enough people who voted for him. Just because I don't like what the majority chooses doesn't mean democracy was destroyed.

Joe Biden has done enormous damage to democracy with his partisan prosecution of his likely political opponent. This is what election interference and damage to democracy looks like. Leftists aren't for democracy, they're for socialism and open borders by any means necessary regardless of what the majority wants.

Surprise. A seditionist supports a fascist insurrection.

[Gadianton]

There is no freedom nor will there ever be freedom for Ajax who is a prisoner of his own mind.

[huckelberry]

I do think he could if reelected damage democracy and the country

What do you mean by damage democracy? Isn't democracy just a system where people are given the responsibility to choose leaders. I think Bernie Sanders would do incredible damage to the economy, the military, and US influence in the world. But I can't say he destroyed Democracy given there were enough people who voted for him. Just because I don't like what the majority chooses doesn't mean democracy was destroyed.

Joe Biden has done enormous damage to democracy with his partisan prosecution of his likely political opponent. This is what election interference and damage to democracy looks like. Leftists aren't for democracy, they're for socialism and open borders by any means necessary regardless of what the majority wants.

Ajax, I can see your point that if Trump win the presidency in an election where when the votes are counted he is the one with the winning votes that would be democracy in action. I might have some fears about him but winning by counting votes instead of wishful claims is democracy. Our country should continue to accommodate citizens voting and counting those votes.

[honorentheos]

Joe Biden has done enormous damage to democracy with his partisan prosecution of his likely political opponent. This is what election interference and damage to democracy looks like. Leftists aren't for democracy, they're for socialism and open borders by any means necessary regardless of what the majority wants.

Ajax,

This is a myth. The legal processes are being applied to Trump because no one is above the law.

The attempt to use accusations of crimes near elections is much closer to your claim. Benghazi, Clinton's emails, Hunter Biden's laptop claims...you should think about your claim and what it's actually based on. I know you read two books this year making the claim the authors were victims of partisan abuse of the legal system. But these examples exhibit the legal system working rather than being abused. You seem to have reduced the claim to a question of who is being investigated and accused rather than concern about the law and if it's been broken.

[ajax18]

This is a myth. The legal processes are being applied to Trump because no one is above the law.

Hunter Biden is a good example of someone above the law. The sweetheart deal the DOJ sought and would have gotten were it not for the whistleblowers and a judge are great examples of someone being above the law because his father ultimately is the law.

[Gadianton]

Ajax logic: if any Democrat ever did anything wrong, then Donald Trump is allowed to overturn the government and become a dictator.

thanks buddy.