Hurtful Language You May Not know.

[Jersey Girl]

Language and it's meaning changes over time. Symbolism same thing.

Example, what's this?

Star of David. David Robinson.

Try again and play it straightforward this time. Like I do with you.

[Jersey Girl]

One more from my own younger years...

You wrote: A deceptive bad deal was "Jewish".

What? When did that happen? Not in my day. To Jew someone down was seen as being adept at doing business. Who the heck turned it into something deceptive? Are you sure you've got that right? That wasn't my own experience. Where does that come from?

Also, just for general purposes since we're on the topic, to get a good Jew lawyer meant you were getting someone who was well schooled and skilled at applying the law on your behalf.

These refs were NOT slurs on Jews. They were acknowledgements of skill. I suppose you can put your own take on it, but that's not how the phrases were used previously.

You simply cannot put a label on all of these things as detrimental. The use and intentions behind the usage is key and develops culturally over time.

I feel a speech coming on here. I'll get to it as I have time.

Back in high school I was viewed as being tough. What do you think was meant by that? I guarantee you the answer will demonstrate how language usage changes over time.

That Jersey Girl is really tough!

What did that mean?

Thank you for a thoughtful response, Jersey. I respect your posts even when I don't agree with them because they seem authentic to me. I recognize that my view isn't the only view worth considering.

Of course not. Neither is mine.

To your first point, in the time and place where I grew up (born in the early 80's in the Salt Lake area) if you got a bad deal people would say you got "Jewed" or "that was Jewish".

Never in all my life have I heard those phrases. Did the place where you grew up have Jewish residents that you interacted with? Did you have Jewish friends? Did you visit them in their homes and did they visit you?

The Jew lawyer thing can also be viewed another way. It could be seen as saying Jews are so manipulative that they can sway any court in your favor.

Manipulative or persuasive? Are you putting a negative spin on a skilled lawyer's ability to sway a jury?

It also involves making assumptions about a whole group of people. It is offensive to those people even if it involves a positive attribute, like assuming Asian people are good at math. I can't imagine them feeling good about that whether they are or not. If they are good at math they might wonder if people think it's about their race. If they suck at math they might wonder if people are also thinking about their race in relation.

I don't disagree with that.

Meanings of words do change over time. Some words won't likely change in the way "tough" has for women in the near future.

You didn't answer my question. What did it mean when I was described as tough? If you aren't sure then what do you assume it meant?

[Father Francis]

The place I grew up in doesn't have a large Jewish community. That probably explains why we see things differently here. In fact, I've only ever met two Jews in my life. Both were born in Israel. My Uncle was a professor and his research often took him to the Middle East. I once went on a hiking trip in Moab with him and a friend he had made in Israel. The other one I met involves a long, bizarre story where I let a person move in with me and kicked them out when I discovered they were lying about their identity and committing crimes that put me at risk.

As far as being "tough" goes, I don't know exactly what they meant when they called you that. I don't want to assume but I have guesses. Perhaps it meant you weren't feminine enough. Possibly meant you were too opinionated and not submissive enough to what men think. Maybe it was a code word for something else. I was born in the Intermountain West in the early 80's. My experience and the words we used are going to be different.

[Father Francis]

The place I grew up in doesn't have a large Jewish community. That probably explains why we see things differently here. In fact, I've only ever met two Jews in my life. Both were born in Israel. My Uncle was a professor and his research often took him to the Middle East. I once went on a hiking trip in Moab with him and a friend he had made in Israel. The other one I met involves a long, bizarre story where I let a person move in with me and kicked them out when I discovered they were lying about their identity and committing crimes that put me at risk.

As far as being "tough" goes, I don't know exactly what they meant when they called you that. I don't want to assume but I have guesses. Perhaps it meant you weren't feminine enough. Possibly meant you were too opinionated and not submissive enough to what men think. Maybe it was a code word for something else. I was born in the Intermountain West in the early 80's. My experience and the words we used are going to be different from yours.

[Jersey Girl]

The place I grew up in doesn't have a large Jewish community. That probably explains why we see things differently here. In fact, I've only ever met two Jews in my life. Both were born in Israel. My Uncle was a professor and his research often took him to the Middle East. I once went on a hiking trip in Moab with him and a friend he had made in Israel. The other one I met involves a long, bizarre story where I let a person move in with me and kicked them out when I discovered they were lying about their identity and committing crimes that put me at risk.

I grew up in a virtual melting pot with Jewish friends and dated a Jewish boy. We all understood and respected each other's religions, high/holy days, and I will tell you, the Jewish kids I grew up with used the same references to Jews that I highlighted in my own posts here and took pride in them, and so did their multicultural friends. You and others don't seem to be aware that those phrases can mean something other than a pejorative. If we extended the conversation it would be evident in other contexts. But they do, and they did, and they can. When you categorize phrases as being solely hurtful, well, yes they can be but they can also mean something positive. If you don't recognize that you are missing the people and their culture that the phrases refer to. Why wouldn't someone take pride in being a "good Jew lawyer" when legalism. applying, and practicing law is an integral part of their ancient heritage?

Just like the following...

As far as being "tough" goes, I don't know exactly what they meant when they called you that. I don't want to assume but I have guesses. Perhaps it meant you weren't feminine enough. Possibly meant you were too opinionated and not submissive enough to what men think. Maybe it was a code word for something else. I was born in the Intermountain West in the early 80's.

Think cool, rad, or whatever the heck words people are using today as a positive slang.

My experience and the words we used are going to be different.

Which was my point in the posts I made on this thread.

Language usage changes over time. Words and their meaning differ in different parts of the country (world) just as well as gestures, hand signs and symbols. That cross symbol that I posted that Bond seemed to make a joke out of. It's been a symbol for Nazis, bikers, surfers, and multiple other groups and meanings.

This is a complex topic. You can open yourself up to alternative viewpoints. What we think we know isn't typically all there is to know. Let's not forget the presence of nuance in our world.

[Father Francis]

My guesses were wrong. Calling a woman "tough" out here in what was farm country when I grew up was both positive and negative. It could mean a woman was either physically or mentally strong. It could mean she wasn't as "ladylike" as she should be. It could mean other things as well.

Side note, " cool" was slang here. It's a pretty old slang word though. "Rad" not so much. I always thought of that as a lame west coast thing when I was a kid. "Bad", "fine" and "wicked" were positive slang though.

[Jersey Girl]

My guesses were wrong. Calling a woman "tough" out here in what was farm country when I grew up was both positive and negative. It could mean a woman was either physically or mentally strong. It could mean she wasn't as "ladylike" as she should be. It could mean other things as well.

Side note, " cool" was slang here. It's a pretty old slang word though. "Rad" not so much. I always thought of that as a lame west coast thing when I was a kid. "Bad", "fine" and "wicked" were positive slang though.

Oh yeah, I was fine for a while, too. In the 70's I became foxy. Hendrix ref I am sure. Lord only knows what I am now.

I kind of think the term "cool" was never out or in...it always just was. The example of "tough" was used to describe people, their clothes, movies, music, whatever. Your hair looks so tough. Did you hear the new Beatles song? Yeah, it's so tough!

[Some Schmo]

Might seem cumbersome, but we should respect people's identities and not use offensive language when speaking of other people.

Thank you for this cutting-edge insight.

It may not be cutting-edge, but it seems to me plenty of people never got the memo, so it would be new to them.

Are you saying that reminders like this aren't worthwhile?

[High Spy]

My guesses were wrong. Calling a woman "tough" out here in what was farm country when I grew up was both positive and negative. It could mean a woman was either physically or mentally strong. It could mean she wasn't as "ladylike" as she should be. It could mean other things as well.

Side note, " cool" was slang here. It's a pretty old slang word though. "Rad" not so much. I always thought of that as a lame west coast thing when I was a kid. "Bad", "fine" and "wicked" were positive slang though.

My mom was tough and would tell my big brother that she would “deck him”, and he got no sugar cereal.

She was sweet as sugar to me, and her surprise baby ate all the sugar cereal he cared to eat.

Maybe being named Francis is why.

[Marcus]

What? When did that happen? Not in my day. To Jew someone down was seen as being adept at doing business. Who the heck turned it into something deceptive? Are you sure you've got that right? That wasn't my own experience. Where does that come from?

The way I heard "Jew" used was always (multiple times as recently as the 2010s in rural KY) along the lines of "he really tried to Jew me up/down on the price [of an object/business deal]" clearly indicating greediness of the opposing person. Often times aimed at Amish/Mennonite farmers so a slight attack on group outside the mainstream in the area.

I'll have to agree with Bond that the usage he described is considered a slur, not a positive label. For reference, I live and work on the East Coast.