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Try again and play it straightforward this time. Like I do with you.Bond wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:11 pmStar of David. David Robinson.Jersey Girl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:37 amLanguage and it's meaning changes over time. Symbolism same thing.
Example, what's this?
Of course not. Neither is mine.Father Francis wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:05 amThank you for a thoughtful response, Jersey. I respect your posts even when I don't agree with them because they seem authentic to me. I recognize that my view isn't the only view worth considering.Jersey Girl wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:24 pmOne more from my own younger years...
You wrote: A deceptive bad deal was "Jewish".
What? When did that happen? Not in my day. To Jew someone down was seen as being adept at doing business. Who the heck turned it into something deceptive?Are you sure you've got that right? That wasn't my own experience. Where does that come from?
Also, just for general purposes since we're on the topic, to get a good Jew lawyer meant you were getting someone who was well schooled and skilled at applying the law on your behalf.
These refs were NOT slurs on Jews. They were acknowledgements of skill. I suppose you can put your own take on it, but that's not how the phrases were used previously.
You simply cannot put a label on all of these things as detrimental. The use and intentions behind the usage is key and develops culturally over time.
I feel a speech coming on here. I'll get to it as I have time.
Back in high school I was viewed as being tough. What do you think was meant by that? I guarantee you the answer will demonstrate how language usage changes over time.
That Jersey Girl is really tough!
What did that mean?
Never in all my life have I heard those phrases. Did the place where you grew up have Jewish residents that you interacted with? Did you have Jewish friends? Did you visit them in their homes and did they visit you?To your first point, in the time and place where I grew up (born in the early 80's in the Salt Lake area) if you got a bad deal people would say you got "Jewed" or "that was Jewish".
Manipulative or persuasive? Are you putting a negative spin on a skilled lawyer's ability to sway a jury?The Jew lawyer thing can also be viewed another way. It could be seen as saying Jews are so manipulative that they can sway any court in your favor.
I don't disagree with that.It also involves making assumptions about a whole group of people. It is offensive to those people even if it involves a positive attribute, like assuming Asian people are good at math. I can't imagine them feeling good about that whether they are or not. If they are good at math they might wonder if people think it's about their race. If they suck at math they might wonder if people are also thinking about their race in relation.
You didn't answer my question. What did it mean when I was described as tough? If you aren't sure then what do you assume it meant?Meanings of words do change over time. Some words won't likely change in the way "tough" has for women in the near future.
Father Francis wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:27 amThe place I grew up in doesn't have a large Jewish community. That probably explains why we see things differently here. In fact, I've only ever met two Jews in my life. Both were born in Israel. My Uncle was a professor and his research often took him to the Middle East. I once went on a hiking trip in Moab with him and a friend he had made in Israel. The other one I met involves a long, bizarre story where I let a person move in with me and kicked them out when I discovered they were lying about their identity and committing crimes that put me at risk.
As far as being "tough" goes, I don't know exactly what they meant when they called you that. I don't want to assume but I have guesses. Perhaps it meant you weren't feminine enough. Possibly meant you were too opinionated and not submissive enough to what men think. Maybe it was a code word for something else. I was born in the Intermountain West in the early 80's. My experience and the words we used are going to be different from yours.
I grew up in a virtual melting pot with Jewish friends and dated a Jewish boy. We all understood and respected each other's religions, high/holy days, and I will tell you, the Jewish kids I grew up with used the same references to Jews that I highlighted in my own posts here and took pride in them, and so did their multicultural friends. You and others don't seem to be aware that those phrases can mean something other than a pejorative. If we extended the conversation it would be evident in other contexts. But they do, and they did, and they can. When you categorize phrases as being solely hurtful, well, yes they can be but they can also mean something positive. If you don't recognize that you are missing the people and their culture that the phrases refer to. Why wouldn't someone take pride in being a "good Jew lawyer" when legalism. applying, and practicing law is an integral part of their ancient heritage?Father Francis wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:27 amThe place I grew up in doesn't have a large Jewish community. That probably explains why we see things differently here. In fact, I've only ever met two Jews in my life. Both were born in Israel. My Uncle was a professor and his research often took him to the Middle East. I once went on a hiking trip in Moab with him and a friend he had made in Israel. The other one I met involves a long, bizarre story where I let a person move in with me and kicked them out when I discovered they were lying about their identity and committing crimes that put me at risk.
Think cool, rad, or whatever the heck words people are using today as a positive slang.As far as being "tough" goes, I don't know exactly what they meant when they called you that. I don't want to assume but I have guesses. Perhaps it meant you weren't feminine enough. Possibly meant you were too opinionated and not submissive enough to what men think. Maybe it was a code word for something else. I was born in the Intermountain West in the early 80's.
Which was my point in the posts I made on this thread.My experience and the words we used are going to be different.
Oh yeah, I was fine for a while, too. In the 70's I became foxy. Hendrix ref I am sure. Lord only knows what I am now.Father Francis wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:29 amMy guesses were wrong. Calling a woman "tough" out here in what was farm country when I grew up was both positive and negative. It could mean a woman was either physically or mentally strong. It could mean she wasn't as "ladylike" as she should be. It could mean other things as well.
Side note, " cool" was slang here. It's a pretty old slang word though. "Rad" not so much. I always thought of that as a lame west coast thing when I was a kid. "Bad", "fine" and "wicked" were positive slang though.
It may not be cutting-edge, but it seems to me plenty of people never got the memo, so it would be new to them.Dr. Shades wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:19 amThank you for this cutting-edge insight.Father Francis wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:14 amMight seem cumbersome, but we should respect people's identities and not use offensive language when speaking of other people.
My mom was tough and would tell my big brother that she would “deck him”, and he got no sugar cereal.Father Francis wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:29 amMy guesses were wrong. Calling a woman "tough" out here in what was farm country when I grew up was both positive and negative. It could mean a woman was either physically or mentally strong. It could mean she wasn't as "ladylike" as she should be. It could mean other things as well.
Side note, " cool" was slang here. It's a pretty old slang word though. "Rad" not so much. I always thought of that as a lame west coast thing when I was a kid. "Bad", "fine" and "wicked" were positive slang though.
I'll have to agree with Bond that the usage he described is considered a slur, not a positive label. For reference, I live and work on the East Coast.Bond wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 2:43 amThe way I heard "Jew" used was always (multiple times as recently as the 2010s in rural KY) along the lines of "he really tried to Jew me up/down on the price [of an object/business deal]" clearly indicating greediness of the opposing person. Often times aimed at Amish/Mennonite farmers so a slight attack on group outside the mainstream in the area.Jersey Girl wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:24 pmWhat? When did that happen? Not in my day. To Jew someone down was seen as being adept at doing business. Who the heck turned it into something deceptive?
