Israel

[Jersey Girl]

Yes.

There are some things that are ruled out by international laws on conduct in warfare, but flooding out an armed enemy with whom one is engaged in active combat is not one of them.

Thanks, Chap. What I envisioned was the enemy being drowned in the tunnels. Is that what they're doing?

[Vēritās]

There are some things that are ruled out by international laws on conduct in warfare, but flooding out an armed enemy with whom one is engaged in active combat is not one of them.

Thanks, Chap. What I envisioned was the enemy being drowned in the tunnels. Is that what they're doing?

^ thinks Trump actually wrote Art of The Con Deal

[Chap]

There are some things that are ruled out by international laws on conduct in warfare, but flooding out an armed enemy with whom one is engaged in active combat is not one of them.

Thanks, Chap. What I envisioned was the enemy being drowned in the tunnels. Is that what they're doing?

Given what is said to be the elaborate nature of the tunnels below Gaza (we have the testimony of releases hostages to that effect), I would think that it would be fairly easy for persons in them to leave any area that was being flooded before their lives were endangered. Probably much of the purpose of flooding accessible parts of the system would simply be to effectively interdict their use. But I am only guessing.

[Jersey Girl]

Thanks, Chap. What I envisioned was the enemy being drowned in the tunnels. Is that what they're doing?

Given what is said to be the elaborate nature of the tunnels below Gaza (we have the testimony of releases hostages to that effect), I would think that it would be fairly easy for persons in them to leave any area that was being flooded before their lives were endangered. Probably much of the purpose of flooding accessible parts of the system would simply be to effectively interdict their use. But I am only guessing.

See I don't know much about that. That's why I asked. I pictured bodies floating out of the tunnels. I guess what you are saying is that they are trying to "flush out" whomever might be in the tunnels...mainly Hamas.

[Jersey Girl]

So the IDF killed 3 Israeli hostages by mistake.

War is absolute insanity.

[Vēritās]

So the IDF killed 3 Israeli hostages by mistake.

War is absolute insanity.

While they were half naked and waving white flags no less. Israel's war crimes are beyond comprehension and we're complicit for funding them. Wonder how the media will try to spin this and blame Hamas.

[Chap]

So the IDF killed 3 Israeli hostages by mistake.

War is absolute insanity.

While they were half naked and waving white flags no less. Israel's war crimes are beyond comprehension and we're complicit for funding them. Wonder how the media will try to spin this and blame Hamas.

The IDF has stated that the soldiers who did the shooting did not act in accordance with the 'rules of engagement' that were in their orders.

However, I have not so far seen a journalistic source pointing out that, even if the IDF's rules of engagement state, as they probably do, that its soldiers should not open fire on obviously unarmed civilians clearly attempting to surrender (and these men were, probably deliberately, shirtless thus showing that they were not wearing suicide vests), the average Israeli soldier is not a professional, but a citizen reservist who may have no previous real combat experience. Put such men in the horribly scary situation of urban warfare against a concealed adversary for a few weeks, and let some men appear unexpectedly in their vicinity, and what may happen? They panic, shout "terrorists" and open fire, as they did in this case.

It may be that we shall have to accept that continued urban war in an environment where the enemy is closely mingled with and indistinguishable from the mass of the population is inevitably going to lead to a lot of civilian casualties, whatever the higher military command issues by way of rules of engagement. With a fully experienced professional army, Israel might be able to argue that it can conduct boots-on-the-ground counter-terrorist operations in Gaza while minimising civilian deaths. However, it does not look as if that is turning out to be a practical proposition, and in that case the justification for continuing such operations is considerably decreased.

[Vēritās]

While they were half naked and waving white flags no less. Israel's war crimes are beyond comprehension and we're complicit for funding them. Wonder how the media will try to spin this and blame Hamas.

The IDF has stated that the soldiers who did the shooting did not act in accordance with the 'rules of engagement' that were in their orders.

Pure horse crap. When you listen to enough interviews of former IDF soldiers you get the sense that they really don't have any rules.

Just a couple of days ago that idiot Dershowitz went on TV to claim this "war" could end at any moment when Hamas lays down their weapons and surrenders. He also said Israel has done everything humanly possible to avoid the killing of innocent civilians.

And here we see Israel gunning down people who they "thought" were Hamas, trying to surrender, and end up killing their own people.

Can there be any doubt now that Israel is a terrorist state? They have no respect for life, even that of their own citizens. All that matters to them is biblical fury and retribution against perceived enemies. Even after they were told they were probably killing hostages held underground with indiscriminate bombings, they do this... sigh.

[Chap]

The IDF has stated that the soldiers who did the shooting did not act in accordance with the 'rules of engagement' that were in their orders.

[...] When you listen to enough interviews of former IDF soldiers you get the sense that they really don't have any rules.

[...]

The statement I made was true. Like any operational army, the IDF has rules of engagement, and in this case they claimed (follow the link) that the soldiers in question had not obeyed them.

However, in the part of my post that you did not quote, I went on to say;

However, I have not so far seen a journalistic source pointing out that, even if the IDF's rules of engagement state, as they probably do, that its soldiers should not open fire on obviously unarmed civilians clearly attempting to surrender (and these men were, probably deliberately, shirtless thus showing that they were not wearing suicide vests), the average Israeli soldier is not a professional, but a citizen reservist who may have no previous real combat experience. Put such men in the horribly scary situation of urban warfare against a concealed adversary for a few weeks, and let some men appear unexpectedly in their vicinity, and what may happen? They panic, shout "terrorists" and open fire, as they did in this case.

It may be that we shall have to accept that continued urban war in an environment where the enemy is closely mingled with and indistinguishable from the mass of the population is inevitably going to lead to a lot of civilian casualties, whatever the higher military command issues by way of rules of engagement. With a fully experienced professional army, Israel might be able to argue that it can conduct boots-on-the-ground counter-terrorist operations in Gaza while minimising civilian deaths. However, it does not look as if that is turning out to be a practical proposition, and in that case the justification for continuing such operations is considerably decreased.

Do you have a problem with what I said?

[Physics Guy]

With a fully experienced professional army, Israel might be able to argue that it can conduct boots-on-the-ground counter-terrorist operations in Gaza while minimising civilian deaths. However, it does not look as if that is turning out to be a practical proposition, and in that case the justification for continuing such operations is considerably decreased.

I'm afraid I have to agree. This is not Entebbe in 1976. Defeating a ruthless enemy in a built-up area might be possible without killing lots of civilians and hostages, but it's at least incredibly hard. Everybody is terrified, and with good reason, so it takes incredibly good training, discipline, and leadership to stop soldiers from just shooting at everything that even slightly alarms them.

This is an enemy, after all, that will be only too happy to play recorded Hebrew cries for help and wave white flags just to mount an ambush or get a suicide bomber close to you. Making the right call within seconds about who is a target or not, with your life and the lives of your friends on the line, does not magically become easy when you put on a uniform. It gets much harder still when you've been under so much stress for weeks that it's hard to make a right call about anything.

I'm not sure what military force would be up to this task, but the Israeli Defense Force does not seem to be. As you say, it's an army of reservists, not an elite counter-terrorism unit.

The fact that it's so hard to avoid killing civilians is still no excuse for killing civilians. You can't throw a grenade into a day care and then plead that it's just hard to do that without killing toddlers. Yeah, obviously: so if you threw it, you murdered them. If you send a reservist army into Gaza, you're murdering lots of civilians just as certainly.

The Palestinian resistance seems to me to be a just cause. These people didn't deserve to lose their homes in 1948, and to be crowded into reserves to this day. Hamas has committed crimes to outweigh that justice and make it reasonable to put all discussions of land ownership on hold until the terrorists are eliminated. The way that Israel is trying to do that eliminating, though, is likewise cancelling its own claims to justice, in the only way possible.

Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands.

Perhaps Israel can say that it doesn't deliberately intend all the civilian casualties, unlike Hamas, but continuing to wage war in a way that is bound to cause lots of civilian casualties is depraved indifference.

By now both sides have sunk so low that they both have reason to think of each other as beasts who don't deserve any compunction.