Stop Demanding Dumb Answers to Hard Questions

[ajax18]

Why didn't you love God before you considered eternal promises?

I misunderstood who God was. He seemed like someone who demanded 100% effort and rewarded the same as if I gave 50%. I felt a lot like Martin Luther, who admitted that he had grown to hate God, because nothing would ever be good enough. I know that sounds awful but that's how I felt when I had misunderstood who He was and what He was about. I felt taken advantage of and lied to by imperfect people during my mission. Zone leaders that stole our money and mission presidents who kept them in leadership roles to continue this because they made up peoples names and reported more baptisms. I remember one MP who would berate the missionaries and say that he and his wife could baptize 15 families/month if they were to do the job themselves which was BS. Why not do that then? Like many missionaries I saw the worst side of the church/fellowship and that also contributed to my misunderstanding of God and what He was like. Any missionaries who were like this are now either excommunicated or repentant. And church leadership has seemed to be able to put a stop to such shenanigans that I thought they once looked the other way on. Even if the leadership had looked the other way at the time, it doesn't affect my testimony now. That's personal between me and my Lord Jesus Christ. The church is perfect. The people are not. And ultimately, I'm not responsible for the choices other people make, only my own.

I'm just curious. You don't need to answer if you'd rather not. I'm not trying to intentionally derail this thread.

Not at all. I love talking about the Lord. There's nothing I enjoy more. Because I've learned that every problem and every bad experience He can turn into a blessing not just for the Church collectively but for me personally and everyone else individually in eternity.

[Gunnar]

Why didn't you love God before you considered eternal promises?

I misunderstood who God was. He seemed like someone who demanded 100% effort and rewarded the same as if I gave 50%. I felt a lot like Martin Luther, who admitted that he had grown to hate God, because nothing would ever be good enough. I know that sounds awful but that's how I felt when I had misunderstood who He was and what He was about. I felt taken advantage of and lied to by imperfect people during my mission. Zone leaders that stole our money and mission presidents who kept them in leadership roles to continue this because they made up peoples names and reported more baptisms. I remember one MP who would berate the missionaries and say that he and his wife could baptize 15 families/month if they were to do the job themselves which was BS. Why not do that then? Like many missionaries I saw the worst side of the church/fellowship and that also contributed to my misunderstanding of God and what He was like. Any missionaries who were like this are now either excommunicated or repentant. And church leadership has seemed to be able to put a stop to such shenanigans that I thought they once looked the other way on. Even if the leadership had looked the other way at the time, it doesn't affect my testimony now. That's personal between me and my Lord Jesus Christ. The church is perfect. The people are not. And ultimately, I'm not responsible for the choices other people make, only my own.

I'm just curious. You don't need to answer if you'd rather not. I'm not trying to intentionally derail this thread.

Not at all. I love talking about the Lord. There's nothing I enjoy more. Because I've learned that every problem and every bad experience He can turn into a blessing not just for the Church collectively but for me personally and everyone else individually in eternity.

I am far from convinced that you understand God or the concept of God any better now than you ever did. Discussions about the true nature of God, or even about whether such a being actually exists are, in my opinion, too often unnecessary distractions from what is really important -- namely striving to treat others as one would like oneself to be treated, or as Gamaliel the elder (a contemporary of Christ if both secular history and The Bible are to be believed) put it:

"That which is hateful unto you, do not unto others. This is the entirety of the law. Everything else is commentary!"

This is the baby that must not be thrown out with the bathwater! Much else of what passes for religion is, by comparison, mere chaff, that too often obscures that one bedrock principle and too often conflicts with it and leads to bigotry, intolerance and cruelty towards others whose views differ from one's own. I contend that even the question of whether or not God or gods exist is less important than that one, and it works for me, whether or not God exists.

[Jersey Girl]

I think you misunderstand the post you replied to. Whoever wrote that is talking about the benefits of having a sense of community, not necessarily living the gospel as you believe it to be. Unless of course, you are thinking about fellowship as part of living the gospel. Then yes, that's the same thing.

Why didn't you love God before you considered eternal promises? I'm just curious. You don't need to answer if you'd rather not. I'm not trying to intentionally derail this thread.

Go ahead. This can now be an open thread.

Do we have thread starter rights around here again? Because I really would like to see those reinstated.

I shall proceed since you have granted me the go ahead.

Mr. Thread Starter

[Jersey Girl]

Why didn't you love God before you considered eternal promises?

I misunderstood who God was. He seemed like someone who demanded 100% effort and rewarded the same as if I gave 50%. I felt a lot like Martin Luther, who admitted that he had grown to hate God, because nothing would ever be good enough. I know that sounds awful but that's how I felt when I had misunderstood who He was and what He was about. I felt taken advantage of and lied to by imperfect people during my mission. Zone leaders that stole our money and mission presidents who kept them in leadership roles to continue this because they made up peoples names and reported more baptisms. I remember one MP who would berate the missionaries and say that he and his wife could baptize 15 families/month if they were to do the job themselves which was BS. Why not do that then? Like many missionaries I saw the worst side of the church/fellowship and that also contributed to my misunderstanding of God and what He was like. Any missionaries who were like this are now either excommunicated or repentant. And church leadership has seemed to be able to put a stop to such shenanigans that I thought they once looked the other way on. Even if the leadership had looked the other way at the time, it doesn't affect my testimony now. That's personal between me and my Lord Jesus Christ. The church is perfect. The people are not. And ultimately, I'm not responsible for the choices other people make, only my own.

I'm just curious. You don't need to answer if you'd rather not. I'm not trying to intentionally derail this thread.

Not at all. I love talking about the Lord. There's nothing I enjoy more. Because I've learned that every problem and every bad experience He can turn into a blessing not just for the Church collectively but for me personally and everyone else individually in eternity.

I read this when you first posted it. Then read it again. And again and again.

I guess what I want to ask you, and if it's not too personal for public posting, who is God and what is God about?

by the way, I absolutely agree with so much of what you said and especially your last paragraph.

[Jersey Girl]

I misunderstood who God was. He seemed like someone who demanded 100% effort and rewarded the same as if I gave 50%. I felt a lot like Martin Luther, who admitted that he had grown to hate God, because nothing would ever be good enough. I know that sounds awful but that's how I felt when I had misunderstood who He was and what He was about. I felt taken advantage of and lied to by imperfect people during my mission. Zone leaders that stole our money and mission presidents who kept them in leadership roles to continue this because they made up peoples names and reported more baptisms. I remember one MP who would berate the missionaries and say that he and his wife could baptize 15 families/month if they were to do the job themselves which was BS. Why not do that then? Like many missionaries I saw the worst side of the church/fellowship and that also contributed to my misunderstanding of God and what He was like. Any missionaries who were like this are now either excommunicated or repentant. And church leadership has seemed to be able to put a stop to such shenanigans that I thought they once looked the other way on. Even if the leadership had looked the other way at the time, it doesn't affect my testimony now. That's personal between me and my Lord Jesus Christ. The church is perfect. The people are not. And ultimately, I'm not responsible for the choices other people make, only my own.

Not at all. I love talking about the Lord. There's nothing I enjoy more. Because I've learned that every problem and every bad experience He can turn into a blessing not just for the Church collectively but for me personally and everyone else individually in eternity.

I am far from convinced that you understand God or the concept of God any better now than you ever did. Discussions about the true nature of God, or even about whether such a being actually exists are, in my opinion, too often unnecessary distractions from what is really important -- namely striving to treat others as one would like oneself to be treated, or as Gamaliel the elder (a contemporary of Christ if both secular history and The Bible are to be believed) put it:

"That which is hateful unto you, do not unto others. This is the entirety of the law. Everything else is commentary!"

This is the baby that must not be thrown out with the bathwater! Much else of what passes for religion is, by comparison, mere chaff, that too often obscures that one bedrock principle and too often conflicts with it and leads to bigotry, intolerance and cruelty towards others whose views differ from one's own. I contend that even the question of whether or not God or gods exist is less important than that one, and it works for me, whether or not God exists.

Uh oh.

I'm going to do something I may not have even done on this particular board. I'm gonna get on the other side of you, Gunnar. Oh...the memories.

In his post, ajax is talking about his experiences with the church. How his views about the people in the church changed, how his perception of the Lord changed and how he believes the Lord can use what we see as "bad" to bless us and our churches.

So how do your comments relate to his post? I'm not seeing it.

Is it because you think on account of his political postings that he doesn't believe in what we call The Golden Rule?

Is that your evidence for his actually doing to others that which he himself hates when it's done to him?

Isn't it wiser to make inquiry than assume?

Your turn...

[Gunnar]

Uh oh.

I'm going to do something I may not have even done on this particular board. I'm gonna get on the other side of you, Gunnar. Oh...the memories.

In his post, ajax is talking about his experiences with the church. How his views about the people in the church changed, how his perception of the Lord changed and how he believes the Lord can use what we see as "bad" to bless us and our churches.

So how do your comments relate to his post? I'm not seeing it.

Is it because you think on account of his political postings that he doesn't believe in what we call The Golden Rule?

Is that your evidence for his actually doing to others that which he himself hates when it's done to him?

Isn't it wiser to make inquiry than assume?

Your turn...

I am not saying or trying to imply that Ajax entirely rejects the Golden Rule. All I am saying or implying is that at least some of his religious and political beliefs can be likened to "chaff" that at least obscures that rule and sometimes conflicts with it, as are his attitudes toward certain minorities and religions of whom he seems to disapprove and condemn. It seems to me that he is at least somewhat selective about to whom he is willing to apply "the golden rule." Yet, I have no doubt that he considers himself a reasonable and righteous person who genuinely loves his family and his friends.

And yes, many of his political postings don't seem entirely consistent with a strict adherence to the Golden Rule nor a willingness to honestly listen to and consider opposing views, regardless of how unequivocally supported by evidence and reason, such as his attitudes toward the unequivocal scientific evidence of the realities and dangers of human caused climate change, the potentially enormous environmental and economic benefits of a green economy, and his intolerant and willfully ignorant attitude towards women's reproductive health and freedom.

[Jersey Girl]

Uh oh.

I'm going to do something I may not have even done on this particular board. I'm gonna get on the other side of you, Gunnar. Oh...the memories.

In his post, ajax is talking about his experiences with the church. How his views about the people in the church changed, how his perception of the Lord changed and how he believes the Lord can use what we see as "bad" to bless us and our churches.

So how do your comments relate to his post? I'm not seeing it.

Is it because you think on account of his political postings that he doesn't believe in what we call The Golden Rule?

Is that your evidence for his actually doing to others that which he himself hates when it's done to him?

Isn't it wiser to make inquiry than assume?

Your turn...

I am not saying or trying to imply that Ajax entirely rejects the Golden Rule. All I am saying or implying is that at least some of his religious and political beliefs can be likened to "chaff" that at least obscures that rule and sometimes conflicts with it, as are his attitudes toward certain minorities and religions of whom he seems to disapprove and condemn. It seems to me that he is at least somewhat selective about to whom he is willing to apply "the golden rule." Yet, I have no doubt that he considers himself a reasonable and righteous person who genuinely loves his family and his friends.

And yes, many of his political postings don't seem entirely consistent with a strict adherence to the Golden Rule nor a willingness to honestly listen to and consider opposing views, regardless of how unequivocally supported by evidence and reason, such as his attitudes toward the unequivocal scientific evidence of the realities and dangers of human caused climate change, the potentially enormous environmental and economic benefits of a green economy, and his intolerant and willfully ignorant attitude towards women's reproductive health and freedom.

1. Would you agree or disagree that humans are capable of compartmentalizing their views and beliefs, and often do?

2. Would you agree or disagree that humans have a tendency to form opinions, particularly biases, based on personal experiences and/or relationships?

3. Would you agree or disagree that biases and opinions are often most effectively changed by personal experiences and/or relationships?

[Gunnar]

1. Would you agree or disagree that humans are capable of compartmentalizing their views and beliefs, and often do?

2. Would you agree or disagree that humans have a tendency to form opinions, particularly biases, based on personal experiences and/or relationships?

3. Would you agree or disagree that biases and opinions are often most effectively changed by personal experiences and/or relationships?

Of course I agree with all those, but I don't see what bearing they have on the validity of my argument.

[ajax18]

I guess what I want to ask you, and if it's not too personal for public posting, who is God and what is God about?

I like to look at the Gospel of Luke. Luke was a physician and focused on the healings. Are you familiar with the fact that as LDS we don't wear crosses. That was difficult for me at first because as a Christian I love to think about the atonement. But those who think Jesus was just about turning the other cheek, suffering through life and being killed for his efforts miss the point. His kingdom was not of this world, but the next. My focus on easter is Christ rising from the tomb with a glorified, perfect, resurrected body. There's an LDS hymn about this,

Jesus once of humble birth
Now in glory comes to earth
Once He suffered grief and pain,
Now He comes on earth to reign
Once rejected by His own
Now their king He shall be known
Once upon the Cross He bowed,
Now His chariot is the cloud
Once all things He meekly bore
But He now will bear no more

Think of the joy when He healed the blind, the lame, and the mentally ill. My error was to question how He did this. My error was to wonder what possible gift in eternity could be worth a family friend of mine back in Memphis in OD school losing their 7 yoa daughter to cancer, while her Dad was going through the most brutally competitive, expensive, and difficult academic fight of his life. What matters is that the Lord has promised us that He will make it worth it for us not whether or not we can understand how He does it. The gospel doesn't have to be complicated. A simple faith and simple belief such as this can take one all the way to the Celestial kingdom. A simple faith in which we take the Lord's word for it, can reach all the back from eternity to right now and bring a happiness that you can find nowhere else.