If Trump WAS Sent by God...

[honorentheos]

msnobody, that's not true. A person who kills someone is less moral by most systems of moral reasoning. There are greater and lesser degrees of evil.

I agree with you theologically on this. I always saw the idea of all sin being equal as skewed.

Trump is unapologetically unwinding two and a half centuries of work building a democratic republic to replace it with an authoritarian self-serving regime. It's an evil worth fighting against if ever there was one. It's happening in our lifetimes. We may be the generation that sees our republic fall. I would not underestimate the moment.

It's not self serving. It serves the 70 million people who want a better life and a better country to live in than what the Democrats are currently offering. It serves the America first agenda, which is in stark contrast to what the Deep State, the CCP, most foreigners, and the uniparty wants.

Thank you for at least not trying to deny what he is actually doing. If the justification for destroying democracy is to attempt to secure advantage for a minority of citizens over the majority, well then...

[Some Schmo]

Thank you for at least not trying to deny what he is actually doing. If the justification for destroying democracy is to attempt to secure advantage for a minority of citizens over the majority, well then...

Maybe MAGA should get their own country, an island somewhere. Then, if you don't like the US as constituted, you can always make your way to Fantasy Island.

*ding... ding...* De plane! De plane!

[ajax18]

Thank you for at least not trying to deny what he is actually doing. If the justification for destroying democracy is to attempt to secure advantage for a minority of citizens over the majority, well then...

Trump is destroying the Democratic socialist, globalist, and open borders agenda, not democracy. I noticed that when Trump lost the election of 2020, he left office. The Democrats have also spent way more money than Republicans in recent elections. Trump was the first man with enough money to stick up for the interests of disenfranchised Americans who never had the cash to compete with Zuckerberg, Bloomberg, Bankman-Fried, etc.

[Doctor Steuss]

Thank you at least not trying to deny what he is actually doing. If the justification for destroying democracy is to attempt to secure advantage for a minority of citizens over the majority, well then...

Trump is destroying the Democratic socialist, globalist, and open borders agenda, not democracy. I noticed that when Trump lost the election of 2020, he left office. The Democrats have also spent way more money than Republicans in recent elections. Trump was the first man with enough money to stick up for the interests of disenfranchised Americans who never had the cash to compete with Zuckerberg, Bloomberg, Bankman-Fried, etc.

If anyone is curious, Open Secrets tracks federal election spending.

Republicans outspent Democrats in 5 of the last 6 federal elections, including the last one. And of course, the majority of Republican spending was outside money.

*sigh*

[Some Schmo]

If anyone is curious, Open Secrets tracks federal election spending.

Republicans outspent Democrats in 5 of the last 6 federal elections, including the last one. And of course, the majority of Republican spending was outside money.

*sigh*

You do realize that fact checking a GOP talking point is unfair, right? If the GOP can't argue with BS, what does that leave them?

Every time I hear anything from the current GOP narrative, I can't help but imagine some belligerent teenager masturbating angrily.

[huckelberry]

I tend to avoid disputes, but will speak out when I think it is appropriate. The main point I sought to make is that none of us are any more moral than Trump. If we think we are, we deceive ourselves.

Msnobody, I think you may be substituting the idea of moral in the place of considerations about our justification before God. I think it is clear that none of us can justify ourselves by our law keeping. We all are short and can only hope in the gift of grace by the will of God.

Thinking of that James quote I understand James to be concerned that people excuse bad behavior (disrespect the poor) by claiming to follow other parts of the law, claiming to be moral because we do moral choices in other areas. James is clear people are not justified in doing that.

I do not think those considerations, which mean a good deal regarding forgiving others, mean we should not make differentiating judgements as to whom to trust with power. I do not think it is easy to work the two different considerations together. We need to be clear about seeking moral action and moral leadership yet be forgiving.

[Jersey Girl]

Back. Read most of the posts, not all. I want to say a few things here.

First, when I posted the Tim Alberta piece I was missing something and he didn't bring it up in the link that I posted. I didn't fully understand what Christian Nationalism is. I did a bit of reading (not much) and at this writing I'm going to say I'm opposed to it based on what little I've learned. If I change my mind, I'll say so. Not trying to wrangle away the topic here but I think it's important to the discussion.

Moving right along...

I do agree that it is not the place of a Christian believer to judge the heart of another person. The judge is God. I do, however, think we are permitted to judge the behavior and actions of others and this is why I think that. I'll include a bit of scripture that I think supports my idea. I'll try not to resort to total cherry picking. Let's see if I can line these up in a way that makes sense to the reader to best express what my thinking is and where it comes from. I know...I could go on for days doing this but I'll try to be brief. I'm not looking for a fight here. Just looking to make myself and my thoughts and beliefs known, and what they are based on.

Judging behaviors and actions..

From Matthew 7 KJV

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Granted that the above is regarding false prophets. Since there's no political candidates or voting rights in the New Testament I think we can apply this "test", if you will, to those who seek to lead in other types of positions--political candidates. If we aren't to judge behavior then where does discernment come in to play?


Warnings about deceivers... are they sent by God?

From Jeremiah 29

29 Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon;

2 (After that Jeconiah the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the carpenters, and the smiths, were departed from Jerusalem;)

3 By the hand of Elasah the son of Shaphan, and Gemariah the son of Hilkiah, (whom Zedekiah king of Judah sent unto Babylon to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon) saying,

4 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon;

5 Build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them;

6 Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished.

7 And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the Lord for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.

8 For thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed.

9 For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the Lord.


What to do when we've judged one's behavior as corrupt or evil...

From 2 Cor 6 KJV

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?


We do have some foundation for dealing with those we are "yoked" with. If we shouldn't be yoked with them, should we cast a vote for them?

So I didn't even get into the whole antichrist/AntiChrist argument or defense. That's far too high a climb for me.

You can say that the portions of scripture I chose are not about politics because they are not. But in those words are principles and I, who thinks the Bible lives and breathes, think they can be applied in various situations in contemporary society including what I see happening in our political system today.

When I vote for a political candidate, I want someone who is principled, ethical, and who is willing and able to serve ALL our citizens. Not themselves. What I see in Trump is a self referential man who relies on winging it from the microphone, who lies and deceives on a regular basis, who acts on one principle which is own well being and enrichment (not to mention the get out of jail free pardon himself card), and I just cannot rightly accept or support him, or vote for him.

Now. In the event that he does win re-election I will pray for him as I have done every other President (including him when he was in office). Of course I will. Why wouldn't I? I would do it even without the following in place because I think and believe it is the right thing for me to do:

Pray for our leaders...

From 1 Timothy 2 KJV

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

So there it is. The Reader's Digest Version of what I think and believe to be true about political principles (oxymoron, no?) as they relate to me. Really, it's as basic as looking at one's track record and results.

When I started to see gobs of Christians and Christian organizations banding together and often shouting in protest, all I could think was...what are you doing? WHAT ARE YOU DOING? Now I understand that there is a name for that group and it's not Evangelical Christians.

It's Christian Nationalists. And I don't see that they are operating on Christian principles and I DO think they are engaging in some level of idolatry re: Trump just as Tim Alberta said.

I think I'm done now. Good luck reading this post. I don't think I even want to talk about this any more. It's exhausting to try to consolidate everything I want to say in a post. We'll see.

[Chap]

... The main point I sought to make is that none of us are any more moral than Trump. If we think we are, we deceive ourselves.

So we can't say that some people act more ethically than others?

How odd, then, that in the Gospel jesus says that at the end of time he will come to judge the world, and will separate the people who acted with compassion and kindness to the sick, hungry and imprisoned and the people who did not, telling the first group that they will be with him forever, while to the second he says "Depart from me. I never knew you."

I mean, doesn't it look a teensy bit like Jesus was judging some people to be more moral than others there? So why shouldn't we?

To bring it closer to home: suppose Trump wanted to date your teenage daughter. Would you feel happy about that, leaving aside the age difference? If not, why not?

And this man wants to be President of the United States, with his finger on the nuclear trigger ... have some pity on the rest of the world, OK?

[Physics Guy]

We aren't supposed to judge people's souls. Only God can do that, and none of us can expect to look good to God.

We do have to try to punish criminals, though. A town that lets proven murderers walk freely isn't a righteous town that is leaving judgement to God, but a town that is neglecting its duty to protect its citizens.

If we are supposed to punish criminals, how much more are we supposed to avoid putting them into high office.

Character matters. In the biggest things it matters more than declared policy platforms, because high officials are elected to deal with unexpected problems that may appear in the future. To shirk the effort of assessing a candidate's character, and of voting accordingly, because we should leave all such judgements to God, is a sin of the same kind as refusing to feed a hungry person because God can do that.

[ajax18]

Trump is destroying the Democratic socialist, globalist, and open borders agenda, not democracy. I noticed that when Trump lost the election of 2020, he left office. The Democrats have also spent way more money than Republicans in recent elections. Trump was the first man with enough money to stick up for the interests of disenfranchised Americans who never had the cash to compete with Zuckerberg, Bloomberg, Bankman-Fried, etc.

If anyone is curious, Open Secrets tracks federal election spending.

Republicans outspent Democrats in 5 of the last 6 federal elections, including the last one. And of course, the majority of Republican spending was outside money.

*sigh*

I just heard on Megyn Kelly's show this morning that Democrats are outspending Republicans by 4 to 1 in the 2024 election cycle. That doesn't even count the taxpayer funded ballot harvesting team marching out to group homes, nursing homes, etc.