We Need More Immigrants, not Fewer

[ajax18]

I also believe that only those who pay more in taxes than they collect in benefits should be voting

I assume in order to be consistent, you also think people who pay less in taxes than collected benefits shouldn't be able to hold political office?

Do you know of anyone now who holds political office and collects more in welfare than he pays in taxes?

The other point is that we don't even know what is in this border bill with Biden. So how do we know if we should vote for it or not.

[Vēritās]

It turns out more apprehended immigrants were released back under Trump than Biden.

https://x.com/dartagnank/status/1753060 ... 32222?s=20

[Doctor Steuss]

I assume in order to be consistent, you also think people who pay less in taxes than collected benefits shouldn't be able to hold political office?

Do you know of anyone now who holds political office and collects more in welfare than he pays in taxes?

Quite a few. One, who has received more in federal social benefits than the amount they paid in federal taxes for almost a decade happens to be a frontrunner for President. Others, when taking into account things like PPP forgiveness, are prominent MAGA members of congress.

The other point is that we don't even know what is in this border bill with Biden. So how do we know if we should vote for it or not.

The text for Biden's USCA, and its border enforcement proposals, has been available since 2021. The full text of the Senates NSBA has been available since 12/4/2023. That aside, since we don't know the full text of the current Senate negotiated revisions, I agree with you... "how do we know if we should vote for it or not." Which begs the question, why is the presumptive Republican Presidential nominee, and the MAGA House leader both adamant that it shouldn't be voted for? Weird.

[ajax18]

Quite a few. One, who has received more in federal social benefits than the amount they paid in federal taxes for almost a decade happens to be a frontrunner for President.

Exactly what kind of welfare payments has Trump received?

Others, when taking into account things like PPP forgiveness, are prominent MAGA members of congress.

That's a scamdemic example where people’s civil rights to work for a living were violated.

The other point is that we don't even know what is in this border bill with Biden. So how do we know if we should vote for it or not.

The text for Biden's USCA, and its border enforcement proposals, has been available since 2021. The full text of the Senates NSBA has been available since 12/4/2023. That aside, since we don't know the full text of the current Senate negotiated revisions, I agree with you... "how do we know if we should vote for it or not." Which begs the question, why is the presumptive Republican Presidential nominee, and the MAGA House leader both adamant that it shouldn't be voted for? Weird.

I appreciate those details. I didn't know this. But the reason that MAGA will not vote for the bill is because it's a bad deal for the MAGA constituents. And Democrats cannot be trusted to enforce the border. You can't negotiate with people who won't keep their end of the bargain.

[Doctor Steuss]

Quite a few. One, who has received more in federal social benefits than the amount they paid in federal taxes for almost a decade happens to be a frontrunner for President.

Exactly what kind of welfare payments has Trump received?

He received almost a billion dollar welfare queen bailout in 1995 alone, that he then spread out onto his returns for almost two decades.

Others, when taking into account things like PPP forgiveness, are prominent MAGA members of congress.

That's a scamdemic example where people’s civil rights to work for a living were violated.

So, this isn't something you are consistent on. Fair enough.

As an aside, the CDC is part of the HHS, which is an executive branch. In other words, everything the CDC did (or didn't do) while Trump was president, was done under his direct leadership and allowance. If it was a "scamdemic," it was Trump's scam. Weird that Republicans are currently supporting the ultimate person behind the scamdemic, and shutdowns.

[ajax18]

He received almost a billion dollar welfare queen bailout in 1995 alone, that he then spread out onto his returns for almost two decades.

Ok, I understand your logic better now. I don't agree that tax writeoffs are equivalent to welfare payouts on Earned Income tax credits, but I do understand your logic.

As an aside, the CDC is part of the HHS, which is an executive branch. In other words, everything the CDC did (or didn't do) while Trump was president, was done under his direct leadership and allowance. If it was a "scamdemic," it was Trump's scam. Weird that Republicans are currently supporting the ultimate person behind the scamdemic, and shutdowns.

Do you honestly believe that? The deep state and the Democrats were the ones crucifying Trump during the scamdemic for opening too soon. Now if you were to argue that DeSantis would have stood up to them and fired Dr. Fauci, I can see your point. But for any Democrat to say that Trump was the reason people were going to jail, getting fined, and being called murderers for getting up and going to work, that's just not intellectually honest. Whether Trump was President or not, that was the Democrats and the uniparty driving the scamdemic, and shutting down anyone who had a different opinion as antiscientific. It's also that same uniparty who is making sure that China is not held accountable for it. I'm sorry bro but blaming Trump for the draconian iditiotic scamdemic response is ridiculous. It's as crazy as saying Biden and Veritas want the border enforced while Republicans are trying to let them all in.

[Doctor Steuss]

Do you honestly believe that? The deep state and the Democrats were the ones crucifying Trump during the scamdemic for opening too soon. Now if you were to argue that DeSantis would have stood up to them and fired Dr. Fauci, I can see your point. But for any Democrat to say that Trump was the reason people were going to jail, getting fined, and being called murderers for getting up and going to work, that's just not intellectually honest. Whether Trump was President or not, that was the Democrats and the uniparty driving the scamdemic, and shutting down anyone who had a different opinion as antiscientific. It's also that same uniparty who is making sure that China is not held accountable for it. I'm sorry bro but blaming Trump for the draconian iditiotic scamdemic response is ridiculous. It's as crazy as saying Biden and Veritas want the border enforced while Republicans are trying to let them all in.

Yes, I honestly believe that by virtue of being under HHS, that the CDC is technically part of the executive branch. While Fauci (and others at the CDC) are protected by federal civil service regulations, since they aren't political appointees, they could still have been easily pressured and had disciplinary actions initiated under the request and direction of the director of NIH (a presidentially appointed position), or the HHS secretary (another presidentially appointed position). In other words, Trump could have heavily influenced and guided the directions of the CDC, Fauci, and the whole kit-and-kaboodle... if he had wanted to (or was smart enough to).

Incidentally, do you not remember when I shared with you Trump's guidelines for Governors to follow? It was an internet archive link to the Whitehouse website while he was President. He issued a booklet for Governors on when to shut down businesses (it even broke down types of businesses), schools, etc., for how long, and what steps would need to happen before gradually reopening. His guidelines were more harsh and stringent than what any Governor or Mayor (Democrat, Independent, or Republican) did.

The grand irony is that he issued his guidelines literally days before he started Tweeting about "freeing" states. Freeing them from Governors who were doing LESS than what Trump literally told them to do days prior. He was criticizing people for doing LESS than what he literally just told them to do, and his base ate it up (and still eats it up).

You're right though, placing all of the blame Trump for the responses to the pandemic is pretty ridiculous. On that I 100% agree. He's far too incompetent and ineffective to receive credit or blame. We probably would have done just as well with a potato wearing a flag pin.

[Gunnar]

Yes, I honestly believe that by virtue of being under HHS, that the CDC is technically part of the executive branch. While Fauci (and others at the CDC) are protected by federal civil service regulations, since they aren't political appointees, they could still have been easily pressured and had disciplinary actions initiated under the request and direction of the director of NIH (a presidentially appointed position), or the HHS secretary (another presidentially appointed position). In other words, Trump could have heavily influenced and guided the directions of the CDC, Fauci, and the whole kit-and-kaboodle... if he had wanted to (or was smart enough to).

Incidentally, do you not remember when I shared with you Trump's guidelines for Governors to follow? It was an internet archive link to the Whitehouse website while he was President. He issued a booklet for Governors on when to shut down businesses (it even broke down types of businesses), schools, etc., for how long, and what steps would need to happen before gradually reopening. His guidelines were more harsh and stringent than what any Governor or Mayor (Democrat, Independent, or Republican) did.

The grand irony is that he issued his guidelines literally days before he started Tweeting about "freeing" states. Freeing them from Governors who were doing LESS than what Trump literally told them to do days prior. He was criticizing people for doing LESS than what he literally just told them to do, and his base ate it up (and still eats it up).

You're right though, placing all of the blame Trump for the responses to the pandemic is pretty ridiculous. On that I 100% agree. He's far too incompetent and ineffective to receive credit or blame. We probably would have done just as well with a potato wearing a flag pin.

Excellent response, Doctor Seuss. I have been anticipating your response to ajax on his incredibly misinformed answer to you. I knew it would be devastatingly accurate, factual, and impeccably reasoned, and I was not disappointed!

I have to agree with both you and ajax that placing all the blame on Trump for U.S. responses to the pandemic is wrong. This was a new and unique virus not fully understood, at first, and mistakes were inevitably made while our scientists (including Fauci) were learning about it and how to handle it (which Fauci, himself, admitted), but my understanding from what I have read about it is that Fauci contributed greatly toward getting a handle on it and how to handle it. As far as I am concerned, he is more deserving of hero status than villain status, not only for his work on covid-19, but also for his great previous contributions to epidemiology in general, especially for the stellar contributions he made to HIV research and how to mitigate it. He also contributed greatly to our understanding and treatment of the dreaded Ebola virus. He certainly does not deserve the disdain and demonization that Trump and his MAGA sycophants have tried to heap upon him!

Nevertheless, the fact remains that our nation, with only 5% of the world's population, had more than 20% of all the deaths due to covid, more than the world's two most populous nations combined. Arguably, few if any nations on earth handled the pandemic worse (at least at first) than our nation did under the Trump Administration!

[Vēritās]

Ajax has no response to the fact that Biden has been harder on immigrants than Trump, or the fact that migrants were far more likely to be released into the USA under Trump than Biden.

And here is something else I always suspected to be true, turning out to be true. The reason we've seen such a huge wave of migrants flooding the border in recent years is partly due to the fact that Right Wing narratives of "open borders" travel south of the border so when they come they're shocked to see they're not open at all. Border Patrol agents are saying some of them are confused because they were under the belief Biden had "Open borders." Gee, wonder where they got that crazy idea.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigra ... ant-surge/

[Gadianton]

Ajax also needs to explain why Trump has any more incentive to expel immigrants than a wealthy Silicon Valley liberal. Why does it matter to Trump, aside from inciting his base about it?

Perhaps when Trump takes over again he will execute on mass deportations. But didn't he promise that in 2016? This term he's so in deep with legal problems, his primary focus will be gaining whatever power he needs to escape from his legal woes, and punish his enemies.

At the end of the day, yes, I think Trump will make "an effort" to create havoc with immigration, and there's a chance he'll succeed at record deportations. But he doesn't have to. He mainly has to shout about it. Why doesn't he have to succeed, Ajax?

The reason is because if Donald Trump says the sky is green, everyone has to support him and say the sky is green. If he says he builds better walls than anybody, people have to say he builds the best walls. If he says he deported historic numbers of illegals, then people have to agree and say he did, no matter what the facts actually are. With such a fantastic safety net of eternal loyalty from his base, he doesn't have to succeed at anything.

MAGA now means keep Donald Trump in power. If Donald Trump is in power, America is great, no matter what the facts are.