If not Biden, who?

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Doctor Steuss
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Re: If not Biden, who?

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Some Schmo wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:02 pm
I imagine Gavin Newsome would have a great chance to beat Trump.
I think Republicans have so thoroughly and effectively given California the "Hillary Clinton" treatment, to where anything or anyone associated with California would have a hard time overcoming the negative connotation propaganda taint. Feelings > Facts.

All it would take is a "do you want America to become California," and it'd probably solidify every Republican, and sway enough Independents to move the needle fairly significantly.

In my (often flawed) opinion, that is.
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Kishkumen
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Re: If not Biden, who?

Post by Kishkumen »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:16 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:02 pm
I imagine Gavin Newsome would have a great chance to beat Trump.
I think Republicans have so thoroughly and effectively given California the "Hillary Clinton" treatment, to where anything or anyone associated with California would have a hard time overcoming the negative connotation propaganda taint. Feelings > Facts.

All it would take is a "do you want America to become California," and it'd probably solidify every Republican, and sway enough Independents to move the needle fairly significantly.

In my (often flawed) opinion, that is.
I feel compelled to agree. Gavin Newsom is the very embodiment of California. The GOP would have a field day with him. Not that this is right. I mean, he is by far and away a better choice than that sick bastard DJT. I think we could grab a school principal from your local K-12 and find someone who is more qualified to be president than DJT, but the Republicans have either drunk the Kool Aid or sold their souls to this petty demon from the sewer of our country. If they admit the emperor has no clothes, the entire edifice comes crashing down.

The emperor has no clothes, and damn what an ugly effing stupid emperor he is.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Gadianton
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Re: If not Biden, who?

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Kishkumen wrote:I feel compelled to agree. Gavin Newsom is the very embodiment of California. The GOP would have a field day with him. Not that this is right. I mean, he is by far and away a better choice than that sick bastard DJT. I think we could grab a school principal from your local K-12 and find someone who is more qualified to be president than DJT, but the Republicans have either drunk the Kool Aid or sold their souls to this petty demon from the sewer of our country. If they admit the emperor has no clothes, the entire edifice comes crashing down.

The emperor has no clothes, and damn what an ugly effing stupid emperor he is.
I always thought of Newsom as a weenie. Of course, I don't know much about him, that was just an impression. Then not too long ago, Steve Schmidt from the Lincoln Project began talking Newsom up and I thought, what, Newsom? Well, I have to say, he's definitely not a weenie. In a debate, he'd tear a new hole in any right-wing politician or pundit that Ajax would support without breaking a sweat, and that's a good start, in my book.

Drinking the Kool Aid implies that republicans are victims of a demagogue. I just have a hard time buying that. A couple years ago on another venue where I spent a small amount of time, I got into a weird debate with a conspiracy theorist from Norway or something who was all-in on the deep state. I can't remember how it fit into his argument, but he brought Noam Chomsky to his defense. After that, I looked into NC a bit, what he has been up to in recent years, and yeah, he's an unhinged libertarian. On the one hand, the single most quoted intellectual writer on the planet, and on the other, a total nut-ball right-winger, who probably doesn't quite get what the right-wing is about anymore. Funny enough, I learned that NC actually called into Alex Jones on his show, as essentially a fan of Alex Jones for Jones' daring to be an individual, and ended up hanging up in frustration.

Well, the point this misplaced student of NC tried to make, drawing off of some of NC's old theory, is that we sheep are essentially victims of government propaganda. This is based on a broadcast model -- as in a satellite broadcast where messaging is one-way. Jean Baudrillard had a very similar model -- his version of the postmodern condition was of society structured by messaging in a unilateral configuration where radio waves propagate from antennas and we, like television sets, receive it. In authoritarian regimes there is merit to the model, and it was a relevant idea in the 50's - 80's, but times have changed. Social media and free-flow of information has destroyed any credibility to the idea that we Americans are the products of government messaging, or really, any unilateral messaging.

My belief is that, unfortunately, while Trump may be a bad guy, he's more of a victim of delusional Americans than delusional Americans are a victim of Trump. Delusional Americans have created the mythological background for a negative messiah, Trump haplessly walked into it, and has effectively played it by ear. But even Donald Trump, in rare moments, reveals shock over how utterly insane his followers are. Liberty and wealth has offered its own unique moral hazards, and the luckiest and wealthiest generation in world history, the boomers, have essentially become bored and turned into a frightening mob of reactionary lunatics. They are, in large number, very bad people, who fortunately won't be around much longer. Pray the GOP destroys Medicare, as it may be the shortest road to ridding our society of what has become known as Trumpism.
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canpakes
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Re: If not Biden, who?

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ajax18 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:02 pm
Why would I pay to protect people who hate me and want to see global pinko communism? The US should have provided Putin an off ramp from the Ukraine war over two years ago.
The first sentence might sell better if the one immediately following wasn’t a tacit acquiescence to the ambitions of a kleptocratic Russian dictator yearning for the resurgence of a communist empire under his flag.

ajax18 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:02 pm
The US should have provided Putin an off ramp from the Ukraine war over two years ago. Russia took over Crimea under Obama, who did nothing to stop them. Now the US isn't even willing to hand over Crimea to Russia in a peace deal. And for what? To continue spending Ukranian blood and American treasure to take back Donback and Crimea?
You’re still pining away for the loss of a Confederacy that hardly lasted 5 years, and you’re asking this question?
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Kishkumen
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Re: If not Biden, who?

Post by Kishkumen »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2024 8:09 pm
I always thought of Newsom as a weenie. Of course, I don't know much about him, that was just an impression. Then not too long ago, Steve Schmidt from the Lincoln Project began talking Newsom up and I thought, what, Newsom? Well, I have to say, he's definitely not a weenie. In a debate, he'd tear a new hole in any right-wing politician or pundit that Ajax would support without breaking a sweat, and that's a good start, in my book.

Drinking the Kool Aid implies that republicans are victims of a demagogue. I just have a hard time buying that. A couple years ago on another venue where I spent a small amount of time, I got into a weird debate with a conspiracy theorist from Norway or something who was all-in on the deep state. I can't remember how it fit into his argument, but he brought Noam Chomsky to his defense. After that, I looked into NC a bit, what has been up to in recent years, and yeah, he's an unhinged libertarian. On the one hand, the single most quoted intellectual writer on the planet, and on the other, a total nut-ball right-winger, who probably doesn't quite get what the right-wing is about anymore. Funny enough, I learned that NC actually called into Alex Jones on his show, as essentially a fan of Alex Jones for Jones' daring to be an individual, and ended up hanging up in frustration.

Well, the point this misplaced student of NC tried to make, drawing off of some of NC's old theory, is that we sheep are essentially victims of government propaganda. This is based on a broadcast model -- as in a satellite broadcast where messaging is one-way. Jean Baudrillard had a very similar model -- his version of the postmodern condition was of society structured by messaging in a unilateral configuration where radio waves propagate from antennas and we, like television sets, receive it. In authoritarian regimes there is merit to the model, and it was a relevant idea in the 50's - 80's, but times have changed. Social media and free-flow of information has destroyed any credibility to the idea that we Americans are the products of government messaging, or really, any unilateral messaging.

My belief is that, unfortunately, while Trump may be a bad guy, he's more of a victim of delusional Americans than delusional Americans are a victim of Trump. Delusional Americans have created the mythological background for a negative messiah, Trump haplessly walked into it, and has effectively played it by ear. But even Donald Trump, in rare moments, reveals shock over how utterly insane his followers are. Liberty and wealth has offered its own unique moral hazards, and the luckiest and wealthiest generation in world history, the boomers, have essentially become bored and turned into a frightening mob of reactionary lunatics. They are, in large number, very bad people, who fortunately won't be around much longer. Pray the GOP destroys Medicare, as it may be the shortest road to ridding our society of what has become known as Trumpism.
I can’t disagree with you, but then I always thought part of the meaning of the emperor’s new clothes was the collective delusion that made it work. Because the actual object of adoration doesn’t offer anything intrinsic to himself. But I have to thank you for another characteristically thoughtful and enlightening post. I could not have put this together. Still, I do think that having the right canvas is important, and Trump seems to offer the right canvas for these folks to paint their ugly fantasies on.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
huckelberry
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Re: If not Biden, who?

Post by huckelberry »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2024 8:09 pm
Kishkumen wrote:I feel compelled to agree. Gavin Newsom is the very embodiment of California. The GOP would have a field day with him. Not that this is right. I mean, he is by far and away a better choice than that sick bastard DJT. I think we could grab a school principal from your local K-12 and find someone who is more qualified to be president than DJT, but the Republicans have either drunk the Kool Aid or sold their souls to this petty demon from the sewer of our country. If they admit the emperor has no clothes, the entire edifice comes crashing down.

The emperor has no clothes, and damn what an ugly effing stupid emperor he is.
I always thought of Newsom as a weenie. Of course, I don't know much about him, that was just an impression. Then not too long ago, Steve Schmidt from the Lincoln Project began talking Newsom up and I thought, what, Newsom? Well, I have to say, he's definitely not a weenie. In a debate, he'd tear a new hole in any right-wing politician or pundit that Ajax would support without breaking a sweat, and that's a good start, in my book.

Drinking the Kool Aid implies that republicans are victims of a demagogue. I just have a hard time buying that. A couple years ago on another venue where I spent a small amount of time, I got into a weird debate with a conspiracy theorist from Norway or something who was all-in on the deep state. I can't remember how it fit into his argument, but he brought Noam Chomsky to his defense. After that, I looked into NC a bit, what he has been up to in recent years, and yeah, he's an unhinged libertarian. On the one hand, the single most quoted intellectual writer on the planet, and on the other, a total nut-ball right-winger, who probably doesn't quite get what the right-wing is about anymore. Funny enough, I learned that NC actually called into Alex Jones on his show, as essentially a fan of Alex Jones for Jones' daring to be an individual, and ended up hanging up in frustration.

Well, the point this misplaced student of NC tried to make, drawing off of some of NC's old theory, is that we sheep are essentially victims of government propaganda. This is based on a broadcast model -- as in a satellite broadcast where messaging is one-way. Jean Baudrillard had a very similar model -- his version of the postmodern condition was of society structured by messaging in a unilateral configuration where radio waves propagate from antennas and we, like television sets, receive it. In authoritarian regimes there is merit to the model, and it was a relevant idea in the 50's - 80's, but times have changed. Social media and free-flow of information has destroyed any credibility to the idea that we Americans are the products of government messaging, or really, any unilateral messaging.

My belief is that, unfortunately, while Trump may be a bad guy, he's more of a victim of delusional Americans than delusional Americans are a victim of Trump. Delusional Americans have created the mythological background for a negative messiah, Trump haplessly walked into it, and has effectively played it by ear. But even Donald Trump, in rare moments, reveals shock over how utterly insane his followers are. Liberty and wealth has offered its own unique moral hazards, and the luckiest and wealthiest generation in world history, the boomers, have essentially become bored and turned into a frightening mob of reactionary lunatics. They are, in large number, very bad people, who fortunately won't be around much longer. Pray the GOP destroys Medicare, as it may be the shortest road to ridding our society of what has become known as Trumpism.
Gadianton, I think you make a good point about Trump being to an important degree a creation of the desires of his followers. There is a dangerous dynamic there.

I am not so happy with your desire to trundle me and my wife off to an early grave in hope of solving this. The boomer folks were very divided in the sixties and some of that division persists. I can remember a lot of violent threats against liberal inclined boomers back then. I remember a gun being pointed at my face by a person with political based threats. Perhaps more to the point is that Trump supports are not just an age group. I do not think the divisions generating Trumpism is an age issue.
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Kishkumen
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Re: If not Biden, who?

Post by Kishkumen »

It’s not fair to generalize, no, but statistically speaking Trump has a whole lot of Boomer supporters.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: If not Biden, who?

Post by Moksha »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2024 8:37 pm
If you think that Biden is somehow worse than Trump,...
No one could be as bad as Trump or a Trump-Putin, or a Trump-Viktor Orban ticket.

Pete Buttigieg on the other hand would represent the smartest and most honest candidate.
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huckelberry
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Re: If not Biden, who?

Post by huckelberry »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:35 pm
It’s not fair to generalize, no, but statistically speaking Trump has a whole lot of Boomer supporters.
Kishkumen, painfully I know you have a point. It does not quite enable me to understand the Trump movement, however. I think I have seen all ages represented amongst his followers but boomers appear to be the larger group. As boomers my friends despise Trump so my sample of boomers gives me no insight into the process. I hear more from the board participants here than people in person. I think of Atlantic Mike whom I much doubt to be a boomer.

Is there a remaining incoherent infection of conspiratorial anti-establishmentism from the 60s in the boomers? As a member of that 60s movement I remain shocked both by the establishment hostility to change and the sort of crazies that inhabited portions of the movement. Those crazies might be thinking in any sort of direction; paranoia breeds mental chaos.

A little formula came to my mind and might help. People of all ages suffer from more ignorance than they like or want to admit to. Around age seven people know they are ignorant and want to learn. By age 18 they imagine they have become wise. By age 26 they again realize they need to learn to get closer to wisdom. By 50 they start thinking they know more than they do again and resist evidence that they don't know.

Gadianton, your proposal that we boomers are just a bad lot does not explain anything about Trumpism. It is a sort of throwing up your hands. But I do not have the explanation either. Are there cycles of destructive spiritual energy which come like hurricanes building on ever-present human weakness and desire for power?
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Kishkumen
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Re: If not Biden, who?

Post by Kishkumen »

Moksha wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2024 4:43 am
No one could be as bad as Trump or a Trump-Putin, or a Trump-Viktor Orban ticket.

Pete Buttigieg on the other hand would represent the smartest and most honest candidate.
Pete is marvelous, but I don't think he would beat Trump. I would like to see President Pete someday, but I don't know that the day has yet arrived.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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