Are people really basically good?

[honorentheos]

But at the end of the day we choose who we want to be.

If only this were entirely true.

[Imwashingmypirate]

But at the end of the day we choose who we want to be.

If only this were entirely true.

Is it not?

I hope it is. Otherwise I'm screwed.

[honorentheos]

If only this were entirely true.

Is it not?

I hope it is. Otherwise I'm screwed.

I tend to agree with arguments against freewill that nonetheless hold that we don't know the difference so we have to act as if we do have freewill.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Is it not?

I hope it is. Otherwise I'm screwed.

I tend to agree with arguments against freewill that nonetheless hold that we don't know the difference so we have to act as if we do have freewill.

I'm not entirely sure free will and choice are the same thing. I think there are extenuating circumstances and situations that take away our control at times and put us into situations where we may be backed into a corner. But how we choose to be has to be our choice and I think choosing to be downright nasty to others is within a person's control for the most part. Yes we can react and later regret. But abusing and bullying people is a choice. When my mum asked my dad why he did the things he did after we left he said, because he could. I don't know if that was just another nasty dig or if he meant it but really it was because he could. But that implies that he had a choice and he choose to be horrible.

[honorentheos]

To expand: suppose a child is born with genetic disposition to having ADHD. Their environmental conditions both in vitro and in their childhood home are such that the genetic potential manifests and they exhibit behaviors such as inattention, difficulty in controlling their emotions, and having a hard time completing tasks. Some folks may write that off as the kid is just lazy and they should learn to focus. That's wrong and also cruel. The kid didn't choose their genes or their environment. And their life will be affected by those factors. That said, a diagnosis and treatment will be life impacting for that kid through both changing the effects of their genes through medication and/or behavior therapies. And they can thrive. Or there may be reasons they don't react well to treatment. Life experiences could send someone into the arc of their lives who lifts them up, or who brings out the worst in them. They can feel the nudge to leave or embrace those influences but how do we differentiate what is their will or self-originating choice? And what came from the accumulated factors before the supposed decision points?

If you're the parent of that child you do everything you can to nudge in positive directions. And also, as a human we are all doing that nudging out of the conditions that influenced whom we are and are becoming.

Freewill or not you do the best you can full of hope for the future and appreciating what is good, beautiful and true in the moment.

[honorentheos]

I tend to agree with arguments against freewill that nonetheless hold that we don't know the difference so we have to act as if we do have freewill.

I'm not entirely sure free will and choice are the same thing. I think there are extenuating circumstances and situations that take away our control at times and put us into situations where we may be backed into a corner. But how we choose to be has to be our choice and I think choosing to be downright nasty to others is within a person's control for the most part. Yes we can react and later regret. But abusing and bullying people is a choice. When my mum asked my dad why he did the things he did after we left he said, because he could. I don't know if that was just another nasty dig or if he meant it but really it was because he could. But that implies that he had a choice and he choose to be horrible.

I posted while you were writing this, not in response to it.

No matter what he said there is no world where your mother or you should have been subject to abusive or bullying behavior. I'm incredibly sorry to hear you experienced this.

[High Spy]

In their mind they are good, but they deceive themselves.

[Res Ipsa]

What Dr. Bokovoy said reminds me of the cognitive bias called fundamental attribution error. When we see someone else do something bad, we assign the "badness" to their nature. When we do bad things, we point out all of the contingent circumstances that led us to make a bad choice. What Dr. Bokovy is doing is similar to saying "extend the same benefit of the doubt to others that you extend to yourself."

Thanks for restating this, res. It was a helpful, appreciated reminder in general.

I don't subscribe to the belief in libertarian freewill, yet see society requiring accountability as if it were infact so. Reconcile this with our inherent expectation for justice gets complicated.

I agree that it is very complicated. I also do not believe that we have the libertarian version of free will. Even if I’m right, holding people accountable for their behavior is important because our behavior is influenced by the nature of our interactions with others. I think we would see more bad behavior in a world where individuals were not held accountable for their actions, whether through the influence on conscious or unconscious choice.

I also think our current concept of justice is skewed too heavily toward retribution, and that’s linked to dividing people into good and bad instead of choices into good and bad. I think deprivation of freedom is justifiable for those that commit crime. But the goal should be to end up with a productive citizen that contributes to society rather than one who, for a myriad of reasons including employment and housing discrimination, ends up making the bad choice to reoffend.

Warehousing people who commit crimes in hellholes that breed crime is not only unjust, but a tremendous waste of human recources.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

https://www.ibtimes.sg/florida-keys-pas ... ting-73747

“Florida Keys Pastor Arrested for Sexually Battering Teen Girl in Church After Getting Her Drunk, Texting Her About Abuse Afterwards”

Ajax. After reading that would you agree black are evil?

Who am I kidding? I know you would!

- Doc

[Res Ipsa]

In their mind they are good, but they deceive themselves.

I think there is something to that. I think most people see themselves as good people. I think that, just like me, most aspire to be good people. But we all still make bad choices.