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Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:45 am
by Res Ipsa
ceeboo wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:45 am
honorentheos wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:09 am
"Ceeboo may think this is all Democrats pushing identity politics but he'd probably wonder why it was left off the agenda in most Democrat rallies.
Ceeboo doesn't think this is the case, Ceeboo knows that the current democrat administration has been bathing in constant divisive and destructive identity politics. Anybody that has functioning eyes and ears would know this as well.

In addition, Ceeboo doesn't wonder why identity politics has been left off the agenda - Ceeboo knows exactly why it has been intentionally left off of the agenda. It's the same reason that the catastrophic border failure has been left off the agenda.
Ceeboo, please give me specific examples of this “constructive and divisive identity politics” in the current Democratic administration. I will match your example for example from the former Trump Administration and the current crop of Maga Congress Critters and I’ll be able to go for days and days reciting the foulest and most divisive vomit from Rs after you run out of examples.

And, the actual truth is that Biden’s actual actions with the respect to the border are pretty similar to Trump’s, with the exception that Biden didn’t steal disaster funds from FEMA. Do I have to go through the lying chart that Trump stole from Johnson, the senator from outer space to show you exactly how Trump lies about the border to his supporters?

There. Is. No. Border. Catastrophe.

There is a border problem. One which was all set to be addressed until Trump ordered the are in Congress to kill it because he wouldn’t be able to base his campaign on making immigrants the new Jews.

Unemployment is low, so Trump’s murdering animals are taking citizens jobs. Crime, including violent crime is way below the peaks of the 90s and has been decreasing since a a relatively small spike during the pandemic, and illegal aliens commit crimes at lower rates than do citizens. So, Trump's army of murderous animals aren’t causing a crime wave, let alone holding Americans hostage in their homes. Evej fentanyl overdoses are trending down (perhaps because killing off your customer base isn’t exactly a winning strategy). And the vast bulk of fentanyl is smuggled into the US through legal border crossings by US citizens — not carried across miles of deserts by subhuman pack animals.

So, where is this catastrophe? Can you show me with actual evidence?

Ceebs, America has problems. The fact that America pays more for health care than any other third world country, with more of its population having no health insurance at all than those same countries, with worse health outcomes across the board than those same countries is a problem. I’d say it’s a significant problem that is a flat out embarrassment to the richest country in the world.

And that’s just one. We’ve got a bunch of them. And not one of them will ever get solved through by running around like chickens with their heads cut off screaming “catastrophe” when, in fact, there is no catastrophe.

And we really need to get this figured out, you and me, and we need to do it pretty quick. Because what we have been seeing is a trickle of people coming over our borders without permission. I’ve been following climate change for over 30 years, and we aren’t catching any breaks. The potential for real catastrophes that even 10-15 years ago were either not expected to ever happen or to happen, at the earliest, in the next century, are now staring us squarely in the face. Lots of our fellow sentient bits of carbon to our south are not going to be able to grow the food they need and, in some areas, will not be able to go outside for long at a time without dying.

And those people, Ceebs, are just like you and me. They don’t want to starve to death. They don’t want to starve to death. They will try to survive, and the last thing they are going to worry about is lines on a map. So, before we get to the point where we are faced with mass slaughter of desperate people trying to come here, we should really figure out how to handle the border problem.

Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:00 am
by honorentheos
ceeboo wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:38 am
honorentheos wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:33 am

The question was how would you distinguish an argument supporting agnostic human rights apply in the case of a same-sex couple or transgender person from an argument that it is about the person being transgender or privileging same-sex marriage?

And, does that distinction matter to you?
So, you don't know.

I must admit, for someone as enlightened as you project to be, I am a little disappointed that you don't know (This was a really easy one).
viewtopic.php?p=2878564#p2878564

So, your turn to answer the question put to you. How would you distinguish an argument supporting agnostic human rights applied in the case of a same-sex couple or transgender person from an argument that it is about the person being transgender or privileging same-sex marriage?

And, does that distinction matter to you?

Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:12 am
by ceeboo
honorentheos wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:00 am
ceeboo wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:38 am

So, you don't know.

I must admit, for someone as enlightened as you project to be, I am a little disappointed that you don't know (This was a really easy one).
viewtopic.php?p=2878564#p2878564
He posts a link that supports my position and doesn't answer if he knows why identity politics were left off the agenda at Harris rallies.

Lol.

For the enlightened one, you're really struggling.

Good news though: I am going to bed, so your struggles have reached an end (at least for today)

Lol.

Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:14 am
by honorentheos
ceeboo wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:12 am
honorentheos wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:00 am


viewtopic.php?p=2878564#p2878564
He posts a link that supports my position and doesn't answer if he knows why identity politics were left off the agenda at Harris rallies.

Lol.

For the enlightened one, you're really struggling.

Good news though: I am going to bed, so your struggles have reached an end (at least for today)

Lol.
Sleep tight, ceebs, secure in your knowledge. But of course you are making the equivalent argument as the folks claiming Democrats sacrifice babies in the basement of pizza parlors. Your belief didn't originate from the source but from the propaganda you consume.

"Tell me why there are no dead babies in the dining room of the pizza parlor, honor! Lol!"

Smh

Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 5:51 am
by canpakes
ceeboo wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:45 am
honorentheos wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:09 am
"Ceeboo may think this is all Democrats pushing identity politics but he'd probably wonder why it was left off the agenda in most Democrat rallies.
Ceeboo doesn't think this is the case, Ceeboo knows that the current democrat administration has been bathing in constant divisive and destructive identity politics. Anybody that has functioning eyes and ears would know this as well.
OK. Let’s discuss examples.

Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 5:56 am
by Some Schmo
canpakes wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 5:51 am
ceeboo wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:45 am

Ceeboo doesn't think this is the case, Ceeboo knows that the current democrat administration has been bathing in constant divisive and destructive identity politics. Anybody that has functioning eyes and ears would know this as well.
OK. Let’s discuss examples.
He doesn't have any. He, like most Republicans, makes assertions without evidence because that's all he knows how to do. It's a side effect of not being in touch with reality.

Like Trump, it's hard to determine whether he's wrong or lying whenever he says anything.

Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 6:16 am
by Jersey Girl
Ceebs...please read this.

Republicans kill border bill in a sign of Trump's strength and McConnell's waning influence


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congre ... rcna137477

Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 2:43 am
by Res Ipsa
ceeboo wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:52 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:08 pm
The folks who make a big issue out of identity pretend that “black” is an identity but “white” is not;
Generally speaking (there are always exceptions) this is not true. In addition, it is my opinion that the great majority of folks who make a big deal out of identity are, obviously, the people who are obsessed with, engage in, and marinate in divisive and destructive identity politics.
that “female” is, but “male” is not; that “gay” is, but “straight” is not; that “atheist” is but “Christian” is not; that “trans” is, but “cis” is not. All politics is identity politics. Accusing Haitians of eating pets is identity politics. Claiming Americans are held hostage in their homes by immigrants who are savage animals and not people is identity politics. Calling a black female Vice President a”ho” and a “c” is identity politics.
With all due respect, I think this is complete nonsense.
Only the lucky members of majority identity groups have the luxury of pretending that they don’t engage in identity politics.
If this were true (I don't believe it's even close to being true), how would you explain someone like a Joe Biden?
Ceeboo, it’s trivially easy to say that something is nonsense. Would you be willing to do me the courtesy of explaining why what I said is nonsense? Is it that you do not believe that the things I described are real world examples? Is it that labeling “white” as an Identity is nonsense? Is it that Republicans can’t engage in identity politics by some definition or other?

Also, I have no idea what you mean by explaining Joe Biden. Just as an example, I don’t understand how my statement that accusing black Haitians of eating their neighbor’s pets somehow makes makes Joe Biden into something beyond explanation. You’re obviously seeing something that I’m missing. What is it?

Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 4:28 am
by Res Ipsa
ceeboo wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:45 am
honorentheos wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:09 am
"Ceeboo may think this is all Democrats pushing identity politics but he'd probably wonder why it was left off the agenda in most Democrat rallies.
Ceeboo doesn't think this is the case, Ceeboo knows that the current democrat administration has been bathing in constant divisive and destructive identity politics. Anybody that has functioning eyes and ears would know this as well.

In addition, Ceeboo doesn't wonder why identity politics has been left off the agenda - Ceeboo knows exactly why it has been intentionally left off of the agenda. It's the same reason that the catastrophic border failure has been left off the agenda.
Hey Ceebs, the fact that I have both functioning eyes and ears makes your argument 100% false. And obviously so. Seriously: why do that?

In terms of making any sort of persuasive argument, you are repeatedly shooting yourself in the foot. It’s personally painful because I am certain that you could do much better.

If any claim is really obvious, it means one of two things are true. First, it is true by definition or simple logical deduction based on agreed premises or the evidence is so clear and or voluminous that it cannot be reasonably denied.

Here is the claim you made:
Ceeboo knows that the current democrat administration has been bathing in constant divisive and destructive identity politics. Anybody that has functioning eyes and ears would know this as well.
Okay, given that you haven’t defined anything, we can’t conclude it’s definitionally true. Since you are simply asserting conclusions, it’s not true by valid logical deduction.

That leaves overwhelming evidence. And that’s where you fall painfully short. I’ve made a number of strong and harsh claims about Donald Trump and other politicians and opinion leaders that support him. And I can claim with a straight face that those claims are obvious because the evidence that supports that are voluminous and trivially easy to find.

In contrast, you haven’t provided any evidence at all of the current administration’s identity politics, let alone anything that is “divisive” “constant” or “bathing in.” And this isn’t the first time you’ve made pretty broad and extreme claims without providing any evidence at all, let alone the evidence that would be necessary to support the extremity of those claims.

Even worse, I can easily support the following claim:
Res Ipsa know that Donald Trump, the Trump Campaign, and the Republican politicians, media, and opinion leaders that support him have been bathing in constant divisive and destructive identity politics.
I’ll skip the pejorative conclusion. But I would have no trouble supporting the notion that my conclusion is glaringly obvious.

Do you doubt that I could take a day and pile on example after example until you would be compelled to say, “ok, enough?” If you do, I am willing to take the time and start a thread of evidence and continue until you tell me to stop.

Here’s what I think is a significant problem you are grappling with. To make my argument, I just have to turn to any of thousands of statements by Trump, by Republican office holders, by Right wing media, by R opinion leaders. The identity politics and divisiveness are pervasive. The entire Trump movement is fueled by grievance and stoked by right wing media and politicians. And because the grievances are directed at other Americans — because other Americans are portrayed as “the enemy within,” they are divisive and destructive almost by definition. The evidence is voluminous and trivially easy to find.

What you are going to have to hunt through is not the words of Joe Biden or his administration, but volumes and volumes of the stokers on the right telling you that Joe Biden and his administration have engaged in divisive and destructive identity politics. Those claims largely go unchallenged on right, so you’re going to have to do quite a bit of work to dig up any evidence. And when you do, it won’t be obvious evidence at all. Unless you get a reliable transcript of what was actually said or do the original policy research on what was actually done, instead of talking a right wing partisan’s word for the facts, you’re going to be presenting a bunch of false or misleading quotations and misleading or made up facts. And I can make that prediction pretty confidently because I’ve spent lots of time examining the evidence relevant to those kinds of claims.

So, I’m pretty confident that you won’t take me up on my evidence challenges because I know how rigged the game is in terms of evidence. What I have at my fingertips is going to take you hours to dig up. Even if you are fortunate enough to find something purporting to be a comprehensive guide to the Biden Administration’s baths brimming with divisive and destructive identity politics, In going to have the time of my life pointing out every lie and misrepresentation while, at the same time, burying your source in mountains of much worse behavior from the other side of the aisle.

And none of that has anything to do with any talent or training personal to me. Sometimes the evidence doesn’t look anything like what you want it to be.

Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 6:05 pm
by Res Ipsa
Trump supporter arrested after brandishing machete at early voting site. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/30/us/p ... chete.html