We should embrace the death of Democracy

[Dwight]

Personally I don't like your attempts to gate keep people as though we must live or have visited parts enough to have an opinion. I think people have sufficient experience and anecdotal evidence is not data. You don't like studies, but pretty much all the studies agree that illegal immigrants largely put in more than they take out, the only major study that disagrees is by the Heritage Foundation and the critiques resonate with me as being tricks they used to manipulate for the conclusion they want. Also I bet you would be dead wrong on at least a couple of the Spanish speaking missionaries I served around in Maryland as to their immigration status.

Undocumented people aren't getting benefits largely though there are exceptions, you are right, I played a bit fast and loose, but my statement is much closer to the truth than yours that they are just here living off the system. There aren't some magic words an immigration lawyer is going to give an undocumented immigrant that will let them get welfare.

Sweden has its own problems with immigration, but less undocumented. It is more of a refugee problem overloading things, and a big chunk of that is cause the US won't take the refugees they create. One guy I had a Swedish class with was an interpreter for US forces, which made him and his family a target as our presence wound down. The US was willing to let him move there and he would be able to start working, but the timeline for him to be able to sponsor his wife and kids was a lot longer than if he instead came to Sweden. However without immigration Swedish economy would be much weaker, if not collapsed. Immigrants fill tech roles keeping companies and work here, they fill vital roles in the healthcare and elderly care sectors as well that would not be able to manage without them. Sure now there are immigrants using healthcare and elderly care, but there is no way Swedes could take care of themselves without immigrants.

[yellowstone123]

Dwight wrote:

Sweden has its own problems with immigration, but less undocumented. It is more of a refugee problem overloading things, and a big chunk of that is cause the US won't take the refugees they create. One guy I had a Swedish class with was an interpreter for US forces, which made him and his family a target as our presence wound down. The US was willing to let him move there and he would be able to start working, but the timeline for him to be able to sponsor his wife and kids was a lot longer than if he instead came to Sweden. However without immigration Swedish economy would be much weaker, if not collapsed. Immigrants fill tech roles keeping companies and work here, they fill vital roles in the healthcare and elderly care sectors as well that would not be able to manage without them. Sure now there are immigrants using healthcare and elderly care, but there is no way Swedes could take care of themselves without immigrants.

Thanks, Dwight. This seems like a fair assessment.

I’m just curious why Sweden would be weaker if it wasn’t for immigration. I believe Sweden is a socialist country with higher taxes and needs to fill all positions of employment. Is that why they need immigration. Perhaps that’s a lesson for all countries.

I’m starting to believe socialism on a small scale surrounded by democracy is a possible path to walk for many people. Since I’m pro Israel I would start out with the Kibbutz and how that has been working for the past hundred years.

[Gadianton]

We (Americans) do not owe folks from other countries a right to be here, it is a privilege.

This is the stuff that kills me. Markk is so special. I thought you Christians considered yourself wretches? My right-wing friend who rivals you and Ceebs for political nonsense is barely a citizen himself, given his mother came illegally on a boat, and was only safe later on because of Reagan's amnesty program. Your 'right' is a technicality. You didn't earn it through hard work. But oh boy, the way you guys talk.

Why are places like San Francisco declining?

It has nothing specifically to do with illegal immigration. It's amazing how much you've learned about Mormon history just to pat yourself back now that you are "Christian" (in the loosest sense possible), while you've just relied on assumptions and prejudice to fuel your political worldview. It's sick, because this bigotry is fueling a growing force that may really screw over a lot of people now. "Just look around! We need mass deportations ASAP!"

Everywhere is in decline for essentially the same reasons: the dramatic increases in wealth inequality. Hot spots go bad due to inflation and gentrification. Other parts go bad due to globalization -- outsourcing or business cycle busts.

"What, you just want to let everybody in?!"

Illegal immigration is a problem. Nobody has said otherwise. But its not the cause of urban decay worldwide nor of San Francisco, of all places. What about El Paso Texas?

El Paso stands on the Rio Grande across the Mexico–United States border

El Paso is a five-time All-America City Award winner, winning in 1969, 2010, 2018, 2020, and 2021,[17] and Congressional Quarterly ranked it in the top-three safest large cities in the United States between 1997 and 2014,[18] including holding the title of the safest city between 2011 and 2014.[19]

El Paso is also the second-largest majority-Hispanic city in the United States (after San Antonio), with 81% of its residents being Hispanic.[20]

Maybe you ought to look outside of the Nazi playbook for solutions to your problems.

I watched Chris Clem on a podcast a couple months ago; he's an unhinged right-wing pro-Trump border-patrol boss. I found his observations credible as far as his job went, beyond that it was the usual nonsense, but he definitely had some interesting points to make. He inadvertently admitted that Trump was a failure. Directly, what he said, was that getting the border under control was working under Trump, but the funding fell apart under Biden.

He said the wall was a failure. He tried to justify it as a symbol that was needed in order to get public support. Right, in order to tap into right-wing hate, billions had to be spent on a wall that didn't work. What worked, however, was that along with the billions that went to the wall, a tiny bucket of money went to other things. Money for equipment and to build access roads to hot spots. It was that tiny bucket of money making a difference, according to Clem, and by golly, Biden let it dry up. So you have this huge unsustainable program that was getting lucky. Well, maybe this Clem guy had a good thing going and both sides need to agree to fund the right tools for the job and get to work and it may even be relatively affordable to plug up the border problem.

But instead, it's a new symbol of outrage "mass deportations", because you need that symbol to get all the hateful, stupid people riled up -- the people who voted Trump. So now, it's even more billions, many times more billions for this new program, that will f' people over much more than a wall ever could. You're going for blood now. And it won't even work. It won't bring life back into that spot where you kissed your first girlfriend.

[Kishkumen]

But instead, it's a new symbol of outrage "mass deportations", because you need that symbol to get all the hateful, stupid people riled up -- the people who voted Trump. So now, it's even more billions, many times more billions for this new program, that will f' people over much more than a wall ever could. You're going for blood now. And it won't even work. It won't bring life back into that spot where you kissed your first girlfriend.

The MAGA party is all about inhumane film-flams, just like its grotesque orange god.

[Markk]

We (Americans) do not owe folks from other countries a right to be here, it is a privilege.

This is the stuff that kills me. Markk is so special. I thought you Christians considered yourself wretches? My right-wing friend who rivals you and Ceebs for political nonsense is barely a citizen himself, given his mother came illegally on a boat, and was only safe later on because of Reagan's amnesty program. Your 'right' is a technicality. You didn't earn it through hard work. But oh boy, the way you guys talk.

Why are places like San Francisco declining?

It has nothing specifically to do with illegal immigration. It's amazing how much you've learned about Mormon history just to pat yourself back now that you are "Christian" (in the loosest sense possible), while you've just relied on assumptions and prejudice to fuel your political worldview. It's sick, because this bigotry is fueling a growing force that may really screw over a lot of people now. "Just look around! We need mass deportations ASAP!"

Everywhere is in decline for essentially the same reasons: the dramatic increases in wealth inequality. Hot spots go bad due to inflation and gentrification. Other parts go bad due to globalization -- outsourcing or business cycle busts.

"What, you just want to let everybody in?!"

Illegal immigration is a problem. Nobody has said otherwise. But its not the cause of urban decay worldwide nor of San Francisco, of all places. What about El Paso Texas?

El Paso stands on the Rio Grande across the Mexico–United States border

El Paso is a five-time All-America City Award winner, winning in 1969, 2010, 2018, 2020, and 2021,[17] and Congressional Quarterly ranked it in the top-three safest large cities in the United States between 1997 and 2014,[18] including holding the title of the safest city between 2011 and 2014.[19]

El Paso is also the second-largest majority-Hispanic city in the United States (after San Antonio), with 81% of its residents being Hispanic.[20]

Maybe you ought to look outside of the Nazi playbook for solutions to your problems.

I watched Chris Clem on a podcast a couple months ago; he's an unhinged right-wing pro-Trump border-patrol boss. I found his observations credible as far as his job went, beyond that it was the usual nonsense, but he definitely had some interesting points to make. He inadvertently admitted that Trump was a failure. Directly, what he said, was that getting the border under control was working under Trump, but the funding fell apart under Biden.

He said the wall was a failure. He tried to justify it as a symbol that was needed in order to get public support. Right, in order to tap into right-wing hate, billions had to be spent on a wall that didn't work. What worked, however, was that along with the billions that went to the wall, a tiny bucket of money went to other things. Money for equipment and to build access roads to hot spots. It was that tiny bucket of money making a difference, according to Clem, and by golly, Biden let it dry up. So you have this huge unsustainable program that was getting lucky. Well, maybe this Clem guy had a good thing going and both sides need to agree to fund the right tools for the job and get to work and it may even be relatively affordable to plug up the border problem.

But instead, it's a new symbol of outrage "mass deportations", because you need that symbol to get all the hateful, stupid people riled up -- the people who voted Trump. So now, it's even more billions, many times more billions for this new program, that will f' people over much more than a wall ever could. You're going for blood now. And it won't even work. It won't bring life back into that spot where you kissed your first girlfriend.

I'll ignore your ad homs. Happy Thanksgiving!

https://www.ktsm.com/local/el-paso-news ... port-says/ (Edit) the first link I pasted failed, so I pasted a new one. But you can just google El Paso Texas Poverty and read many, the first one I pasted was a Wall street article.

Take a look at this video.....this is getting more and more common, it is all over So Cal. If not checked it is coming your way. It is easy to live conservatively, with ones hard earned monetary security, in nice safe neighborhoods, while preaching liberal talking points. It is another to take the time to get out and see and witness the issues and problems, and actually understanding what is happening, or at least the best we can.

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo ... n_el_paso/

If you were a business owner in places like this, and you spent a life time building your business, for retirement, how would you feel?

You have absolutely no idea what is happening on the Southern Border, Wikipedia is not going to help you much. But you should see the affects of what is coming in through the Border. With the Cartel controlling the drug trafficking, sex trades, human trafficking. 200 folks die each day from Fentanyl, and countless families are destroyed, every day.

We can try to just have a caviler attitude about it, or we can try to do something about it. The past administration did nothing, they just made it worse, far worse. Hopefully the next can do better. I certainly hope so.

[edit add} https://www.elpasotexas.gov/community-a ... %20percent.

[canpakes]

So now, it's even more billions, many times more billions for this new program, that will f' people over much more than a wall ever could. You're going for blood now. And it won't even work. It won't bring life back into that spot where you kissed your first girlfriend.

This is what gets me. With one estimate already coming in at $88 billion dollars per 1 million deportations, the whole idea sounds at best like another waste of money compared to working towards improving our citizenship process and speed. Far worse is that some of the plan’s proponents boast of its potential for cruelty as a feature, and seem driven by an odd and misplaced sense of revenge.

Anyhow, Happy Thanksgiving to us, I guess. Those other people can take a hike ... back across the border, right?

[canpakes]

Happy Thanksgiving, Markk!

https://www.ktsm.com/local/el-paso-news ... port-says/ (Edit) the first link I pasted failed, so I pasted a new one. But you can just google El Paso Texas Poverty and read many, the first one I pasted was a Wall street article.

You’ve probably driven through El Paso, right? In some places, the 10 highway literally sits on the border division between the US and Mexico. Merely by turning your head from north to south while driving down it, you can see the huge disparity in wealth between the two sides. If anything, I’m amazed that the poverty rate is that low considering that this is essentially one large metro area split by an invisible (for the most part) border. Given the demographics, why doesn’t the US side track more closely? Because (as mentioned earlier), cities have unique situations and are poor examples of the point you are wanting to make.

Besides, El Paso ranks better on the source at the link below. Check out the solidly American strongholds that rate worse in poverty. What is driving that?

https://www.madisontrust.com/informatio ... 2435%2C000.

If you were a business owner in places like this, and you spent a life time building your business, for retirement, how would you feel? .

You speak as if El Paso was a wealthy paradise at some point. It never has been that.

Something else to consider is that cities go through transitions and their generations grow through those challenges. Just 100 years ago, conditions and poverty in places like New York City would have shocked you. The fact that metro areas experience poverty isn’t a new phenomenon.

https://www.history.com/news/tenement-p ... immigrants

Where are the families of these people today? How could they possibly have survived and eventually prospered, as opposed to ruining their own lives and the city around them? Maybe the ‘others’ we see, in their present state, are not all so horrible as some would have us believe.

[Bret Ripley]

We (Americans) do not owe folks from other countries a right to be here, it is a privilege.

"The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt." I'll go out on a limb and suggest that "love them as yourself" isn't a clever euphemism for "deport the uppity sons of bitches."

[Dwight]

Thanks, Dwight. This seems like a fair assessment.

I’m just curious why Sweden would be weaker if it wasn’t for immigration. I believe Sweden is a socialist country with higher taxes and needs to fill all positions of employment. Is that why they need immigration. Perhaps that’s a lesson for all countries.

I’m starting to believe socialism on a small scale surrounded by democracy is a possible path to walk for many people. Since I’m pro Israel I would start out with the Kibbutz and how that has been working for the past hundred years.

Sweden is a social democracy, capitalism is very much alive and there is more and more privatization of things that used to be the domain of the government. If anything it scales well, Stockholm the tax rate is lower cause the population density makes the economies of scale work better. When I took micro and then macro economics there were certain things that capitalism isn’t well suited for and I’d say generally Sweden tries to play to the strengths of capitalism and socialism and mixing them.

To get closer to healthcare there is more and more privatization for providers. Especially in things like elder care. Private companies aren’t going to operate unless they are making a profit. The people willing to work with the elderly for the rates offered are significantly immigrants. In theory though they compete and people will chose providers that do better service, but sometimes it seems it is just an inefficiency that someone is profiting in the middle without adding much value.

[Markk]

Happy Thanksgiving, Markk!

You too!

You’ve probably driven through El Paso, right? In some places, the 10 highway literally sits on the border division between the US and Mexico. Merely by turning your head from north to south while driving down it, you can see the huge disparity in wealth between the two sides. If anything, I’m amazed that the poverty rate is that low considering that this is essentially one large metro area split by an invisible (for the most part) border. Given the demographics, why doesn’t the US side track more closely? Because (as mentioned earlier), cities have unique situations and are poor examples of the point you are wanting to make.

Besides, El Paso ranks better on the source at the link below. Check out the solidly American strongholds that rate worse in poverty. What is driving that?

No, I haven't. You can do that with most cities, even the tougher ones. I am not sure how that changes the poverty rate.

What point am I trying to make? I think you are confused and did not read the exchange between Gad and I.

CP wrote...You speak as if El Paso was a wealthy paradise at some point. It never has been that.

Again you are confusing me with Gad....go back and read our exchange. He implied that El Paso was immune to the poverty caused by illegal immigration and all that goes with it. I showed him the poverty rates and a video of the streets. Your argument is with Gad.

CP wrote...Something else to consider is that cities go through transitions and their generations grow through those challenges. Just 100 years ago, conditions and poverty in places like New York City would have shocked you. The fact that metro areas experience poverty isn’t a new phenomenon.

https://www.history.com/news/tenement-p ... immigrants

Where are the families of these people today? How could they possibly have survived and eventually prospered, as opposed to ruining their own lives and the city around them? Maybe the ‘others’ we see, in their present state, are not all so horrible as some would have us believe.

Okay? What are you saying, open the borders, and lets roll the dice and see how it turns out in a 100 years, despite the problems we see today?

Comparing immigration and assimilation of the past with today, is apples and oranges.