Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

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canpakes
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Re: Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

Post by canpakes »

Cultellus wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:24 pm
canpakes wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:16 pm

I don’t need to identify the people making the claim. They will identify themselves by making the claim. ; )
You and Gadianton have this nailed.
Thanks. Good to know that someone said this on the internet today.
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Re: Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

Post by Gunnar »

A Michigan doctor said 6 out of 8 patients who questioned his medical advice on COVID-19 have died

The two other patients Trunsky wrote about remain in critical condition.

A Michigan pulmonologist recounted interactions with eight patients who were severely suffering from COVID-19 while they ignored the reality of the virus in a Facebook post.

On Friday, Dr. Matthew Trunsky, the director of the palliative care unit at a Beaumont Health network hospital in Troy, Michigan, told The Washington Post six of those eight patients have since died.

In his September 11 Facebook post, Trunsky said some of the patients denied having the virus, requested unproven and unapproved treatments like ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine, or even said: "I'd rather die than take the vaccine."

"This is not to mention the anger the people have towards the physicians [and] the nurses who are really doing our best - and who are delivering exceptionally excellent care," Trunsky wrote. "Of course the answer was to have been vaccinated - but they were not and now they're angry at the medical community for their failure. Numbers are on the rise. Get your vaccine."

Trunsky told the Post he estimates 90% of the patients he treats are unvaccinated. He said he and other healthcare workers are burnt out and he is especially saddened by the number of patients who have died from COVID-19 during the span of the pandemic.

"We are physically tired as a whole, me included, and we are emotionally exhausted. … I don't think a week goes by that I don't see someone pass away," Trunsky told the Post.

Several studies have shown that somewhere between 20% to 30% of healthcare workers are considering leaving the profession because of burnout, CNBC reported.

Trunsky said while the rollout of COVID-19 vaccines in December gave him hope that the situation would get better, that turned around as the Delta variant spread and cases rose again, mostly among the unvaccinated.

He told the Post while some unvaccinated patients say they regret not getting their shots, others are adamant in their choice, even on their deathbeds.
It is no exaggeration to say that those who convince people to ignore medical advice to get vaccinated who consequently die of covid-19 because of that misinformation are guilty of being accessories to negligent homicide!
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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canpakes
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Re: Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

Post by canpakes »

Gunnar wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:57 am
A Michigan doctor said 6 out of 8 patients who questioned his medical advice on COVID-19 have died

The two other patients Trunsky wrote about remain in critical condition.

A Michigan pulmonologist recounted interactions with eight patients who were severely suffering from COVID-19 while they ignored the reality of the virus in a Facebook post.

On Friday, Dr. Matthew Trunsky, the director of the palliative care unit at a Beaumont Health network hospital in Troy, Michigan, told The Washington Post six of those eight patients have since died.

The good doctor must feel like he’s on a swamped boat and watching the folks on board argue with the water.
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Re: Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

Post by Gunnar »

Cultellus wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:43 pm
It is no exaggeration to say that unvaccinated people who post misinformation about misinformation are serial killers!
The misinformation is coming from you and the other anti-vaxxers, not from the CDC and the dedicated healthcare professionals like the good doctor in the article who urge everyone to get vaccinated.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Re: Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

Post by Gunnar »

canpakes wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:18 pm
The good doctor must feel like he’s on a swamped boat and watching the folks on board argue with the water.
Good analogy!
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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canpakes
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Re: Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

Post by canpakes »

Gunnar wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:06 pm
canpakes wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:18 pm
The good doctor must feel like he’s on a swamped boat and watching the folks on board argue with the water.
Good analogy!

Doctor, to fellow passenger on swamping boat: “Here, take a life jacket.”

Passenger, looking at others with life jackets, floating in the water: “The life jackets don’t work!!”
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canpakes
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Re: Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

Post by canpakes »

Cultellus wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:05 pm
The options to me are simple; surrender to the facts (they are not what you self-victimized clowns think) or censor this magazine, or prosecute the magazine for murder (that is a joke, I made that up), or prosecute them for being an accessory to negligent homicide (that is not a joke, people really believe this.)
Third option: Allow the study to finish. Then the actual numbers will be known.
Chap
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Re: Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

Post by Chap »

canpakes wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:22 pm
Cultellus wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:05 pm
The options to me are simple; surrender to the facts (they are not what you self-victimized clowns think) or censor this magazine, or prosecute the magazine for murder (that is a joke, I made that up), or prosecute them for being an accessory to negligent homicide (that is not a joke, people really believe this.)
Third option: Allow the study to finish. Then the actual numbers will be known.
Oh that study in the New England Journal of Medicine? See here:

Preliminary Findings of mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine Safety in Pregnant Persons

This provoked an exchange in the Letters section, in which a correspondent argued that the figures as presented suggested that women who had been vaccinated early in pregnancy had a higher risk of spontaneous abortion (same link), to which the authors replied.

The original authors then published a further article dealing with the points raised, and producing further results:

Receipt of mRNA Covid-19 Vaccines and Risk of Spontaneous Abortion

Their conclusion to the new paper ends:
Nonetheless, our findings suggest that the risk of spontaneous abortion after mRNA Covid-19 vaccination either before conception or during pregnancy is consistent with the expected risk of spontaneous abortion; these findings add to the accumulating evidence about the safety of mRNA Covid-19 vaccination in pregnancy.5
In other words: No, the vaccine does not appear to increase the rate of spontaneous abortion in early pregnancy.

That's how science works. You do research. You publish your results and the conclusions you draw from it. Your colleagues make comments and (in some case) criticisms. You do more work in consequence and publish further conclusions. At the end, everybody knows more than they did at the start. Good stuff, science.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Perhaps the research has changed over the years, but my concern with pregnant women receiving any type of vaccine is the preliminary research suggesting a link between inflammatory immune response during pregnancy and autism. Then again, COVID would likely cause a more severe inflammatory response than the vaccine, so it’s kind of a risk : benefit dilly… which are always difficult (and deeply personal) waters to navigate.
Lem
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Re: Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

Post by Lem »

As Chap pointed out, there was a discussion about this in the comments to the preliminary study quoted by the magazine. The authors of the study were very clear:
The authors reply:

Sun appropriately raises questions about the proportion of women reporting spontaneous abortion in our recent article. We agree that the denominator used in that proportion — 827 completed pregnancies — is not an appropriate denominator for the calculation of a risk estimate or rate.

The number of spontaneous abortions (104) reflects data reported by the participants as of March 30, 2021, during telephone follow-up. In this preliminary report, follow-up information was missing for the majority of pregnancies in which exposure to vaccination occurred in early pregnancy.

Among the 1224 women who had been vaccinated before conception or in the first trimester, follow-up through 20 weeks of gestation had been completed for only 204 pregnancies that were known to be ongoing and for 1 pregnancy that resulted in stillbirth. Among the pregnancies that had not yet reached 20 weeks of gestation, there were 10 pregnancies with other outcomes before 20 weeks of gestation, including 8 ectopic pregnancies and 2 induced abortions. For the other 905 pregnancies, follow-up had not occurred to establish whether these pregnancies were ongoing past 20 weeks of gestation. We have amended Table 4 in our earlier publication and have clarified the text.

Subsequently, we completed telephone follow-up for the 905 pregnancies and enrolled additional persons in the v-safe pregnancy registry. To determine the cumulative risk of spontaneous abortion from 6 to less than 20 weeks of gestation, we used life-table methods to perform an updated analysis, now reported in the Journal, involving 2456 women who received at least one dose of an mRNA Covid-19 vaccine before conception or before 20 weeks of gestation.1

The estimated risks (14.1% overall and 12.8% in age-standardized analyses) are consistent with the risks of spontaneous abortion reported in the general population.1

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2104983
I hope the magazine posts a correction. Using such an inflammatory title when the actual data does not support it is irresponsible.

It is also worth noting that the original comment from which the Evie mag author presumably drew their analysis was published on Sept 8. The author’s response, which I posted above, was ALSO posted Sept 8.

Additionally, at the top of the 4/21/21 preliminary article is now this message:
A correction has been published 1
With a link to the update, which was also posted Sept 8.

The article in Evie Magazine is dated September 22.

That’s just bad journalism to reference the preliminary study without noting the updates that were clearly available weeks before the article was published.
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