This deserves more attention. I think you are taking this too far in a direction that favors you. Conscientiousness does not always mean a person does what is best for others. A conscientious mother can care for her children but also has to have some awareness that if she is not able to take care of herself she will be unable to care for her children. Conscientiousness can be selfish without being hurtful or amoral.
This is the great dilemma with the vaccine. Looking at 360 million people or 7 billion we may think that 100% vaccination would be perfect. But if you ask 360 million or 7 billion people what is the best decision for them, they may opt out. That does not make them amoral. It does not make them evil. It may be the best decision for them.
It is also unfair to judge someone in the light of hypothetical. "IF" every person got the vaccine, THEN it would do X. Well every person is not getting it. The hypothetical does not apply. The real question, not the one that you need for your religious ideology is this, "Some people are getting the vaccine and others are not. The vaccine is mutating rapidly. It appears the vaccine may not be 100 percent successful in stopping the alpha variant or the delta variant. What works for you and your family?"
And the answer to the question of why people do not get it if it could help or would help is glaringly obvious. They do not trust you.
Thank you for your very reasonable reply. I am afraid that I am getting ready for a journey at the moment, so cannot reply properly.
First - I do not have a 'religious point of view'. Religion plays no part in my thinking.
You seem to think that a person who decides to act purely in their own interests or those of their family, no matter what the effect of those decision on others, is not open to moral criticism.
Suppose we are on a ship that is sinking. There is a lifeboat with space for thirty people. You get in it with your family (say a spouse and a child) and launch it while holding off all other passengers who approach the boat at gunpoint. You have only done what seemed right for your family, but I don't think many people would think you had acted morally in doing so.
Similarly, if you ignore the interests of your fellow citizens in decisions about vaccination, I don't think you can claim to be automatically free of moral reproach simply because you have "done what seemed right for your family".
I think you would not positively evaluate a senator who stood on a platform stating that if elected they would use their office purely to benefit themselves and their family, would you?
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
Similarly, if you ignore the interests of your fellow citizens in decisions about vaccination, I don't think you can claim to be automatically free of moral reproach simply because you have "done what seemed right for your family".
From another source:
Recent Pertussis and Measles outbreaks illustrate how non-vaccination contributes to contagious transmission. For example, 214 children were affected by a measles outbreak in the United States in 2011, and 13 % of those children were too young for vaccination and were infected by unvaccinated children (Unvaccinated Behind Largest U.S. Measles Outbreak in Years 2013). In April 2013, more than 30 cases of measles were reported in Brooklyn, New York, causing two hospitalizations, one miscarriage, and one case of pneumonia (Ali and Weichselbaum 2013). In 2012, there were a record 2,000 cases of measles reported in the UK, and by May 2013, there were already 1,200 reported cases (Cheng 2013). Public health officials attribute these outbreaks to parents’ refusal to vaccinate their children against measles. The decision to refuse vaccination is often based in unfounded fears about autism and the measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccine (DeStefano et al. 2013). Measles can be deadly. In 2011, 158,000 people in the world died of measles (WHO Fact Sheet—Measles 2013). Children who contract measles can die from pneumonia or measles encephalitis, and it is especially dangerous for people who have limited access to health care or adequate nutrition. Vaccination effectively prevents measles deaths. From 2000 to 2011 measles deaths fell worldwide by 71 % because of vaccination programs (Global Control and Regional Elimination of Measles, 2000–2011 2013).
Apparently, folks who will not agree to vaccination are running a risk probability assessment, for themselves, and exclusive of risk to others. They can’t actually determine either, in this case, but I wonder what their cutoff number is that pushes them into a ‘will vaccinate’ decision?
I’m betting that would be a difficult answer to pry from them.
Similarly, if you ignore the interests of your fellow citizens in decisions about vaccination, I don't think you can claim to be automatically free of moral reproach simply because you have "done what seemed right for your family".
From another source:
Recent Pertussis and Measles outbreaks illustrate how non-vaccination contributes to contagious transmission. For example, 214 children were affected by a measles outbreak in the United States in 2011, and 13 % of those children were too young for vaccination and were infected by unvaccinated children (Unvaccinated Behind Largest U.S. Measles Outbreak in Years 2013). In April 2013, more than 30 cases of measles were reported in Brooklyn, New York, causing two hospitalizations, one miscarriage, and one case of pneumonia (Ali and Weichselbaum 2013). In 2012, there were a record 2,000 cases of measles reported in the UK, and by May 2013, there were already 1,200 reported cases (Cheng 2013). Public health officials attribute these outbreaks to parents’ refusal to vaccinate their children against measles. The decision to refuse vaccination is often based in unfounded fears about autism and the measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccine (DeStefano et al. 2013). Measles can be deadly. In 2011, 158,000 people in the world died of measles (WHO Fact Sheet—Measles 2013). Children who contract measles can die from pneumonia or measles encephalitis, and it is especially dangerous for people who have limited access to health care or adequate nutrition. Vaccination effectively prevents measles deaths. From 2000 to 2011 measles deaths fell worldwide by 71 % because of vaccination programs (Global Control and Regional Elimination of Measles, 2000–2011 2013).
Apparently, folks who will not agree to vaccination are running a risk probability assessment, for themselves, and exclusive of risk to others. They can’t actually determine either, in this case, but I wonder what their cutoff number is that pushes them into a ‘will vaccinate’ decision?
I’m betting that would be a difficult answer to pry from them.
Whenever I read post from Icarus or doc cam I often imagine the words coming out of the mouth of Michael Rapaport . Check this video out, Rapaport goes from feeling like a hero for getting the vaccine to becoming a super spreader . You can't make this crap up!!
Whenever I read post from Icarus or doc cam I often imagine the words coming out of the mouth of Michael Rapaport . Check this video out, Rapaport goes from feeling like a hero for getting the vaccine to becoming a super spreader . You can't make this crap up!!
Hey, Mike - what’s your level of risk to yourself and others that you’ve used to either accept or reject vaccination?
There is a risk that the vaccine could have a side effect to an individual.
This is why we test them well. In the history of vaccines it's almost unheard of to see side affects after 6 weeks. Most happen within 2 weeks. This is why vaccines are first tested in a small group for safety and effectiveness, then tested with 10's of thousands to see if any side affects come up. If no, then any side affects that may exist are almost certainly very rare. In fact we have seen a couple of side affects so rare that they would likely not show up in stage 3 trails of the vaccines. The reason we don't see side affects after about 6 weeks of taking a vaccine dose is that vaccines are usually only taken in one or two does then done. This means it's out of your system in a matter of weeks, unlike many medicines we take on a daily basis in some cases for many years or more.
For a virus with a 99.97 percent survivability rate, we are not going to kill, maim or incarcerate people who are willing to take a 0.03 percent risk with a virus and a greater risk with driving or swimming.
Do you have data showing these numbers? I have only seen ones showing over 1% which is considered to be serious for a virus. These numbers show vaccines as a much smaller risk of taking than chancing an infection from the virus. When looking at risk verses reward we might decide in certain circumstances driving is to dangerous, or that swimming in a certain area or under certain environmental conditions is too risky. In many cases one can reduce risk by doing simple things easy to do that don't have to take away from the rewards we can get in life. Shaking hands is one I can think of. We also know that a new virus like this could create more deadly strains.
Whenever I read post from Icarus or doc cam I often imagine the words coming out of the mouth of Michael Rapaport . Check this video out, Rapaport goes from feeling like a hero for getting the vaccine to becoming a super spreader . You can't make this crap up!!
Hey, Mike - what’s your level of risk to yourself and others that you’ve used to either accept or reject vaccination?
Risk is throughout your life canpakes. Are you scared of the "regular flu", influenza, it also kills? What should we do about that strain, should we make it mandatory to take that vaccine also? How bout alcohol, if we outlaw alcohol I don't have to worry about drunk drivers? What gives them the right to drive after they drink and maybe kill me or one of my family members, we could eliminate that by just outlawing alcohol? How bout making people wear helmets while driving, head injuries are one of the biggest killers in suto accidents, should we require people to wear helmets while driving? I breath second hand smoke Monday through Friday, should we outlaw cigarettes? Outlawing cigarettes would benefit the person smoking, people close to them breathing in the second hand smoke. Fat people pass down terrible eating habits to their kids, should we take their kids away from them so the kids have a chance of a future without becoming ? Eating habits are passed down generationally. Fat parents are killing their kids by teaching them terrible eating habits while also making our health care bills sky rocket from heart disease, joint care, and etc. Let's make the speed limit 25mph everywhere!!! You know how many lives would be saved? What gives the right for someone to go 55 and hit me head-on when I'm more likely to survive a wreck at 25mph? Let's make people clean with vinegar or maybe steam only. Getting rid of harsh chemicals would save thousands of lives. Let's fill in all swimming pools with dirt, save thousands of lives. No one needs a motorcycle, they're dangerous. Let's eliminate balconies on second third and fourth floors, extremely dangerous. Let's get rid of guns. Let's get rid of knives. Let's cut any trees down so close to a house it could fall down and kill someone sleeping. Let's outlaw pitbulls, German Shepard and only allow chihuahuas. Let's kill all the rattlesnakes in America. Let's declaw all the Bears. And do on and so on and so on and so on. For Christ sake man!
By the way, my family is vaccinated because we take care of three elderly people. But I do not believe we should make the vaccine mandatory.
An anti-masker and anti-vaxxer consulting an expert on masks and vaccines:
- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
So, you have antivaxactivsts that have no means of visible support, imdb listings, and were/are listed on the workfinder "explore talent" shilling for GQP orgs. I’d love to be able to follow the money on these guys, because, you know, who would it lead to?
- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
. Check this video out, Rapaport goes from feeling like a hero for getting the vaccine to becoming a super spreader 
