Vaccine or not?

[Jersey Girl]

Someone asked this in another online community I am in, so I thought I'd run it by you guys.

How many of you think you will opt to take the new vaccines particularly the mRNA vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna? While I have not seen the final analysis of either of these (I think we will soon) and I know there will be more extended study on these...I intend to take one of them myself. I have read comments by others (in that other community) that they think it's too soon. I think the only thing that would stop me is something in the safety profile having to do with producing an irregular heart rhythm. Been there done that. Ain't going back if I can help it.

Here are my reasons just off the top of my head:

1. The U.S. had the genetic code for the virus back in January-ish and researchers began their work right then.

2. While this is a novel coronavirus, it is not the first coronavirus researchers have addressed. They already knew something about coronavirus so therefore they had a foundation to build on.

3. People are afraid they were rushed through. I don't see it that way. I think technology has made possible the rapid development and entry into clinical trials for these vaccines. I also think they have been "layering" the process the whole entire time even to the point of producing vaccine before the trials were completed. That's why we've never seen anything like this before.

So what are your current thoughts on this?

[Res Ipsa]

I had some concerns some months ago when the FDA appeared to be influenced by political pressure. I don’t think it’s a problem now. By the time I get an opportunity to be vaccinated, the trials will have been reviewed by every qualified scientist in the world.

So, I plan to get vaccinated as soon I have opportunity. And I plan to continue to maintain my current precautions until the prevalence in my area is greatly reduced.

[Chap]

3. People are afraid they were rushed through. I don't see it that way. I think technology has made possible the rapid development and entry into clinical trials for these vaccines. I also think they have been "layering" the process the whole entire time even to the point of producing vaccine before the trials were completed. That's why we've never seen anything like this before.

I think an equally or more important factor may be the removal of all unnecessary administrative delay.

I recently heard a vaccine researcher addressing this point. He said that all the essential safety testing normally done for vaccine and other drug development is being carried out, but without the lengthy delays due to drawing up grant applications, waiting to seee if you get funded, waiting for approval to be given by statutory bodies who meet every six months, etc etc, leaving researchers simply twiddling their thumbs and doing no useful work. He compared it to the difference between driving across London from east to west through the centre under normal traffic conditions, which will take a couple of hours at least, and driving the same route if you are the Queen, in which case all the side roads you pass will be shut as you approach within half a mile of them, and all the traffic lights you pass will be set to green. You travel the same route, but much more quickly because there are no hold-ups.

[Res Ipsa]

Thanks, Chap. That makes quite a bit of sense.

[Jersey Girl]

I would love to transfer some of the comments from the other place but I am sure you all have seen similar before and I think they are depressing and alarming at the same time.

People think it's too soon.
People don't trust anything Fauci says "because he hasn't treated a patient in decades".
People think it's being forced on us in an effort to control us--conspiracy stuff.
People don't get the flu shot so they won't get this one.
People think Covid is no worse than the flu so why bother.

It's not like the information about R&D on these isn't available from reputable sources online and only a click away. There's article after article on these. Videos for those who don't feel like reading. I don't know WHAT MORE anyone could have done to inform the public. Do they want someone to pat them on the back and say "There, there, now. I will hold your hand. It's going to be okay." I mean, come on.

And just remember when you get to the actual anti-vaxxers those are primarily people who don't know what it's like to live in a world where there aren't vaccines. Ironic, no?

And don't get me started on people who let memes do the talking and thinking for them. I just saw the other day one of my relatives posting about how scared they were of the vaccines because they have COPD. Next thing I know they post this thing about dryer sheets (I use them from time to time, but I primarily switched to dryer balls) and all the toxic crap that is in them. On the list appears "ethanol" which is the propellant in the inhaler this relative uses.

Listen, I am not the sharpest tool in the drawer but I believe I have got my head wrapped about the R&D on these vaccines and I don't feel reluctant to get vaccinated against Covid-19. Maybe a twinge of fear of the unknown, but then again I get shot up for influenza, pneumonia, etc. like it's my job and I don't know specifically what's in those either.

I just do feel like the oversight on these vaccines is tight and the reason (including what Chap wrote about administrative restrictions lifted--Fauci addressed that in an interview I saw) they can be developed, approved and rolled out so fast is because scientists have studied this stuff for a decade or so, had the appropriate platforms in place to choose from, they layered/overlapped processes, and basically we live in an age of technology and this isn't the old days.

What the hell else do people really need or want to know? A solid gold money back guarantee? You don't even get that in a bottle of aspirin.

Sorry about the rant, I just lose patience some days.

[Jersey Girl]

3. People are afraid they were rushed through. I don't see it that way. I think technology has made possible the rapid development and entry into clinical trials for these vaccines. I also think they have been "layering" the process the whole entire time even to the point of producing vaccine before the trials were completed. That's why we've never seen anything like this before.

I think an equally or more important factor may be the removal of all unnecessary administrative delay.

I recently heard a vaccine researcher addressing this point. He said that all the essential safety testing normally done for vaccine and other drug development is being carried out, but without the lengthy delays due to drawing up grant applications, waiting to seee if you get funded, waiting for approval to be given by statutory bodies who meet every six months, etc etc, leaving researchers simply twiddling their thumbs and doing no useful work. He compared it to the difference between driving across London from east to west through the centre under normal traffic conditions, which will take a couple of hours at least, and driving the same route if you are the Queen, in which case all the side roads you pass will be shut as you approach within half a mile of them, and all the traffic lights you pass will be set to green. You travel the same route, but much more quickly because there are no hold-ups.

Yes, Chap, yes. Fauci addressed this in an interview months ago and I am sure he and others have repeated themselves blue in the face by now.

I feel like people are getting their news and feeding off each other on Facebook or something. My god use the keyboard under your fingertips.

I often look at the comments under a news video particularly local comments. I saw one "functional medicine" person laughing because she thinks people are going to get shot up with the very virus that they're all afraid of.

I can't even with this crap any more.

[Res Ipsa]

FYI: my county’s flu deaths for the last two years: 11 and 26. With over a month to go, COVID has killed 272.

[canpakes]

What the hell else do people really need or want to know? A solid gold money back guarantee? You don't even get that in a bottle of aspirin.

Even aspirin can kill you. : )

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-risk ... 6120070509

I’ll have no issue with taking the vaccine when it is made available to the general public, in part because of some of the reasons you’ve touched upon above.

[Jersey Girl]

So somewhere in one of these vaccine related discussions (not this one apparently) I mentioned that with the shingles vaccine that my arm swelled up to at least twice it's normal size, had chills, and I couldn't raise up my arm for I dunno, maybe 4+ days. When I discussed the same types of effects with the pharmacist who administered the shingles shot recently, they said that my reaction was due to my having a strong immune response and that's good.

Here's an article that I posted on another thread just earlier.

Public needs to preparation for vaccine side effects

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6520/1022

Couple of remarks I want to post here.

This summer, computational biologist Luke Hutchison volunteered for a trial of Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine. But after the second injection, his arm swelled up to the size of a “goose egg,” Hutchison says. He can't be sure he got the vaccine and not a placebo, but within a few hours, Hutchison, who was healthy and 43, was beset by bone and muscle aches and a 38.9°C fever. “I started shaking. I had cold and hot rushes,” he says. “I was sitting by the phone all night long thinking: ‘Should I call 911?’”

Hutchison's symptoms resolved after 12 hours. But, he says, “Nobody prepared me for the severity of this.”

Both Moderna's and Pfizer/BioNTech's vaccines require two doses separated by several weeks. Reactogenicity is typically higher after a second dose, Weissman says. The side effects “mean the vaccine is working well. … [It] means you had such a good immune response to the first dose and now you are seeing the effects of that,” he says.

So that's basically what the pharmacist was trying to tell me. This article says to take Tylenol (and suck it up) or Naproxen. I'll have the Tylenol thank you, and yes, I will gladly suck it up.

[Chap]

As the article to which you link says:

Most people will escape “severe” side effects, defined as those that prevent daily activity. Fewer than 2% of recipients of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines developed severe fevers of 39°C to 40°C. But if the companies win regulatory approvals, they're aiming to supply vaccine to 35 million people worldwide by the end of December. If 2% experienced severe fever, that would be 700,000 people.

Other transient side effects would likely affect even more people. The independent board that conducted the interim analysis of Moderna's huge trial found that severe side effects included fatigue in 9.7% of participants, muscle pain in 8.9%, joint pain in 5.2%, and headache in 4.5%. In the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine trial, the numbers were lower: Severe side effects included fatigue (3.8%) and headache (2%).

The numbers in this report carry the obvious message "you may possibly get some discomfort after vaccination, but you probably won't" - and since the side effects of the virus itself (for you, those you love, and your neighbours and co-workers) can include long-term disability as well as death, taking the vaccine remains a no-brainer.

Guess what, though? Journalists in search of a story that is not just the dull old stuff about "Thank God science that vaccines are becoming available to give us hope of returning to normality - let's all get the shots!" will have all kinds of fun and get fees for writing stuff talking about the side-effects, running stories saying lots of people are getting worried and becoming reluctant to get the shots (guess why) and so on. And thus the take-up will be diminished, and more people will dies or suffer lasting damage.