Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

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honorentheos
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

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Bret Ripley wrote:
Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:40 am
As a bit of self-criticism: back in the day spent way too much time on little details (most of which never ended up coming into play), and it is still true. There is a short story by Tolkien called "Leaf By Niggle" in which the protagonist -- an artist named Niggle -- is supposed to be working on a painting of a tree, but he never gets anywhere close to finishing it. Rather than work on the tree's trunk and branches, he spends all his time obsessively trying to get one leaf just right. I can identify with Niggle: at the game I was prepared to rattle off several inconsequential yarns the Innkeeper might relate, what was on the menu, and other such minutiae but if any of the players had asked the king's name I swear to God I would've had to check my notes!

And yes: the players were great. They are new to TTRPGs and were keen for adventure; getting them to the dungeon was all carrot and no stick, and very little carrot at that. The only pressure I applied was inside the dungeon when indecision set in -- even then all I had to do was explain the concept of wandering monsters/random encounters and then start rolling. They caught on fast.

Thanks again for recommending the Matt Colville videos, which are generally awesome. One of Matt's methods to motivate players is what he calls "chasing them up a tree" -- that phrase came back to me midgame when it dawned on me that I literally had one player up a tree. :)
:lol:

I'm glad to hear it went well, and frankly it sounds to me like the depth of thought you put into having details on details to share would play incredibly well at almost any table I've ever sat at. You had shared some of the details with me before but I had no idea there was an iceberg under there.
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

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(Part 2 of 3, probably)

So on to the dungeon!

The players learned what they could about the layout of the lair from Krumple the gobbo urchin. There were 3 ways in: the main cave entrance; a well-hidden side-tunnel that was less well-guarded; and the tunnels Krumple had used to escape. They checked out the main entrance from a safe distance and decided it was too well guarded and the approach too exposed. They dismissed the side tunnel out-of-hand -- from the description it seemed that one or two goblins could block their way and it could become a death trap if more goblins came up from behind. They decided to try Krumple's way and hoped the goblins hadn't discovered how she had got out.

Krumple had mentioned that while wandering in the tunnels she found herself in a chamber with a "skellington" and an "icky jelly lady." She hadn't noticed anything else in that room, having been preoccupied with getting the hell out of there. The group decided to take Krumple with them to point the way through the tunnels. Krumple led them to the spot where she had emerged from Spindledrift Mountain and they descended the stairs to the ruined chapel. Here they met an unexpected check.

As mentioned previously, Krumple's escape involved 2 hidden doors: one that let her out of the lair and into the tunnels, and a second from the tunnels to the ruined chapel. Krumple had emerged into the chapel from the non-hidden side of the secret door, which was self-closing. She could point to the spot where the door was (indeed, they could see her footprints in the dust) but there was no obvious door-opening mechanism. The wall (and door) was covered in strange symbols and mythological images depicted in bas relief (I adapted some Mesopotamian imagery for this). The location of the door corresponded to images of the sun, moon, and stars, and a series of strange beasts on either side of the door. An adjacent wall bore a damaged inscription in an archaic form of a language with which the cleric was familiar and (with the help of a successful arcana check) was able to mostly translate. This chapel was dedicated to an unfamiliar goddess and the inscription listed blessings and curses her faithful could expect depending on her mood. More importantly for our heroes, it also offered clues to open the secret door: "The Bull of Heaven shall sink into the depths, Tiamat shall follow, The Heavens shall be opened unto thee." The bull and Tiamat were two of the images (one on either side of "the heavens"), and when manipulated the door opened. The group was back in business.

After walking a short distance down the revealed tunnel, Krumple tugged on the Druid's sleeve and pointed to a passageway up ahead branching off to the right: "skellington," she whispered, "and icky jelly lady." The players had speculated what an "icky jelly lady" may be -- some form of gelatinous cube being the favorite hypothesis -- and while three of the players wanted to stay on task and pass it by, the two others couldn't resist checking it out.

So it was that the rogue and the druid cautiously crept down the righthand passage until it opened into room about 15' wide and 30' long; there was an opening in the opposite wall that appeared to lead to another tunnel. Against the righthand wall was the figure of a man with a bull's head; in his left hand he held a platter which held a small pile of various objects: coins, vials, ceramic figurines, and other bits and bobs. In his right hand was a scythe which he held threateningly overhead.

On the opposite wall was a large, human-sized niche that held the less-than-perfectly preserved remains of an armored female warrior who appeared for all the world to be suspended in aspic: Mr. DeMille, the icky jelly lady is ready for her closeup.

There were inscriptions associated with both the statue and the past-her-expiration-date warrior, but the cleric was the only one who may possibly have been able to read them -- and she was out in the main passage and wasn't interested in getting sidetracked from attempting to rescue 'Nana' Harbuckle. Indecision set in: should they walk up to the warrior? What about the statue with the tray full of possible goodies? Wait, didn't Krumple say something about a jelly lady and a skeleton?

Speaking of which: it was about here that we had a little conversation about the passage of time and wandering monsters; I rolled the die. Soon after that the two players that were (just barely) in the room began to hear from the far archway the faint 'click-clack, click-clack' sound of bone on stone; the rogue and druid exit stage left and rejoin their comrades. (Honorentheos will take my meaning if, before leaving this room behind, I give him a knowing nod.)

To be continued (again) ...
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

Post by honorentheos »

Thanks again for sharing this, Bret. I'm enjoying reading it.

I wondered if the two players who attempted to check out the "icky jelly lady" also had the most 5e experience/exposure? I suspect they are, partially because of what you've shared before, and partially because I think people who played older versions of the game or are completely inexperienced may feel more vulnerable? While the mechanics of 5e D&D tend to validate the heroic fantasy to such a degree players feel less risk exposure pulling on threads like that? You can tell players who know all too well why the equipment list still includes a 10-foot pole...
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

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honorentheos wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:24 am
I wondered if the two players who attempted to check out the "icky jelly lady" also had the most 5e experience/exposure? I suspect they are, partially because of what you've shared before, and partially because I think people who played older versions of the game or are completely inexperienced may feel more vulnerable?
Exactly so. The player running the druid has played 5e, and the rogue has watched plenty of gameplay video. In fact, it was on his recommendation that I watched 'Fantasy High,' which was my first exposure to 5e gameplay.
You can tell players who know all too well why the equipment list still includes a 10-foot pole...
Heh ... you got that right. But just try to tell kids today what it was like and they won't believe you. </geezer rant>
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

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The druid and rogue rejoined their comrades in the passageway, and the party pressed on to their final objective. They made their way uneventfully to Krumple's secret door and, finding it apparently undiscovered by the goblins, made their way into what was a dead-end portion of tunnel inside the lair.

Image(This was a "draft" version of the lair; the final version was a bit different but followed the same general footprint.)

Up to this point, gameplay had been mostly "theater of the mind" as far as maps go, but now we broke out the toys.

Image

The party cautiously made their way down the tunnel until the rogue took a stealthy peek around a bend and saw that the tunnel led to a more open area, and that there were two goblins up ahead talking to each other. They were facing the chamber up ahead (away from the party), and the rogue watched as one of the goblins wandered off a short distance to take a piss against the wall.

There was no hesitation in the rogue -- he wanted to make a stealth check to sneak up on the remaining goblin so he could attack with advantage (also enabling him to make a sneak attack with his rapier). The dice were to be cold for everyone later on -- most especially for the rogue -- but not yet:

ImageFirst blood.

After this one-hit kill, general melee ensued. The plan of attack for the goblins was to use their innate "disengage" ability to draw the party out into space and in different directions so our heroes could be surrounded and taken out piecemeal or, barring that, put up a good show until the big bad hobgoblin made it on the scene. But this battle plan was unnecessary -- what followed would include little that could be described as "small unit tactics."

One fighter drew a bow and used ranged attacks throughout the battle, while every other member of the party (except NPC Krumple) rushed forward and spread out, which was what the goblins wanted. The party successfully dispatched a couple of goblins pretty quickly, and a couple of goblins started to break off and make a run for it -- due to the conditions Krumple had described earlier, their morale was low even for goblins -- but just then the big bad arrived on the scene and rearranged their priorities. They re-engaged.

But some of the goblins had already done some damage, and just as the big bad was making his entrance our druid found herself at 2 hit points -- she made a strategic withdrawal for some healing.

Around the same time, the cleric took a hit and -- remember, she is completely new to DnD -- asked whether losing hit points had any effect on fighting ability, which of course it doesn't. I mentioned that this was also true for their enemies: a hurt goblin hits just as hard as a healthy one. After that they figured out pretty quickly that rather than spreading their damage out over multiple targets, the best way to reduce the amount of potential damage coming their way was to concentrate their efforts. They began prioritizing enemies that had already been hurt to finish them off.

ImageI used colored rings to help me keep track of individual goblins. This was about midway through the fight, when things were looking fairly grim for the party. The big bad was just off to the left (I somehow managed to leave him out the photos) and in the background you can just about make out the druid who is healing herself. Standing next to her is Krumple who is saying to the druid: "I bet you are fighting really well!" (big grin, two thumbs up).

It was at about this point that the dice went cold for everyone, most especially me; the rogue was engaged in a one-one-one combat in which neither could hit the other. The hobgoblin boss waded in and hit the cleric but rolled a 1 for damage; this was to be the only damage he did.

The druid, now back in action, cast Entangle on an area that included the hobgoblin and also the goblin the rogue was fighting; they would spend the rest of the fight stuck in place flailing about ineffectively. Everyone except the rogue -- his duel with the goblin had become personal -- now targeted the hobgoblin, who still lasted a while because the players were rolling almost as badly as I was. Still, eventually they wore down the boss and down he went; the remaining goblins who were able immediately fled, or (as was the case with the goblin caught by Entangle) laid down submissively and surrendered.

The rogue didn't miss a beat: "if he's lying down, doesn't that mean I get to attack with advantage?" He rolled a 4 on his first die, and another 4 with the second. "Swish, swish" went his rapier, much to everyone's amusement. He didn't press his attack after that, and (just to rub it in) the goblins who witnessed it mistook his flailings for some sort of salute, a sign of respect for a worthy opponent.

And so it was that our brave heroes rescued the halfling slave, Nana McGuffin Harbuckle, who was understandably overjoyed at this turn in her fortune; but not so full of joy that she couldn't pick up a ladle and take particular and long-dreamed-for revenge on the kitchen staff: "Repeat after me: mud {whack} is not {whack} a spice!"

And that's where we wrapped things up. It came in at about 3 hours of gameplay, and as my wife and I left some of the players were talking about what they wanted to do next.
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

Post by honorentheos »

Hi Bret –

Thanks again for sharing the outcome of your session. It really sounds like it was a lot of fun and I’m glad it for you that it may have turned into a running campaign of sorts.

I’m curious if you’ve ever given any thought to writing adventures or other material? The world of third party publishing is vast and there are quite a few venues for getting material out for others to discover and purchase. DMsGuild.com, DriveThruRPG.com are both examples where folks have found success in publishing everything from character builds to one-shots to full settings and campaign guides.

I for one think everything you’ve shared on the board, both in this thread and just in general, suggest you could find a niche where all of those flavorful ideas could be something more.

Anyway, I LOVE the minis and tiles you show. Did you make any of it or mostly purchase them? I haven’t seen those tiles before and they look like something a person could make using templates and some hot glue that still pop nicely.
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

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One other comment: The fact as a DM I roll bad so often, and at moments that really seem to help the PCs, could be the best evidence I've seen there is some form of deity that exists, if only one that is conjured by roleplaying games. Going cold in combats is almost a given to me. Maybe there's a ritual in the process of gathering to roll dice, eat snacks, and create a story that affects the probabilities around the DM's dice? There should be a study. "Scientists discover evidence that suggests DMs roll well less frequently than males under 40 get laid" or something...

Trickster gods...hmmm.
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Bret Ripley
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

Post by Bret Ripley »

honorentheos wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:44 pm
Hi Bret –

Thanks again for sharing the outcome of your session. It really sounds like it was a lot of fun and I’m glad it for you that it may have turned into a running campaign of sorts.
Thanks again for the kind words. I would never have considered DMing again had it not been for your encouragement, and reading the experiences you and others have shared in this thread.
I’m curious if you’ve ever given any thought to writing adventures or other material?
Well, no -- it's not something I have ever considered. It may be worth remembering that I had been 'prepping' for this one-off since ... what, July? The basic structure of the adventure was formed fairly early on, and due to the time constraints of a one-off I couldn't really add much in the way of encounters or anything that would take up too much game time; time spent thinking about the adventure was spent mostly in trying to make what was already there richer -- backstories for NPCs, their personality traits, and so on.

(If I may -- one of my favorite bits of inconsequential fluff was an anecdote told by the publican, Iffy Pete, about his late older brother, Reliable Pete, who had been hanged for thievery many years earlier. It seems that Reliable Pete had advertised a horse for sale and proceeded to collect "earnest money" from 8 different buyers, none of whom received the horse or their money back. After giving folks the runaround for several months, Reliable Pete was eventually arrested. When the charge of receiving funds for "sale of the same horse to various parties" was read, Reliable Pete's defense had been that he couldn't possibly be guilty of that charge, having never owned a horse in his life. After a heated debate over the merits of this argument, the charge had sensibly been amended to read "sale of an immaterial horse." All agreed that this was fair enough, but when Reliable Pete went on to suggest that a fit punishment for selling an immaterial horse was an immaterial punishment, he had been hanged on the spot out of exasperation.)
Anyway, I LOVE the minis and tiles you show. Did you make any of it ... ?
Oh hells no. The minis were purchased from a variety of places, and those that are painted came pre-painted.

The tiles I found on Etsy -- the bases are actually laser-etched wood, though I expect a 3D printer and some paint would do the trick. Being wood-based, these tiles are surprisingly lightweight. The only (slight) criticism I have about them is that the piles of 'debris' are made up of tiny individual bits sprinkled onto glue, and some of these bits easily become unstuck and ... well, it's slightly untidy. But all-in-all I am very happy with them. Two sets of these tiles were used to make the layout shown earlier.
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

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Bret Ripley wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 12:32 am
It may be worth remembering that I had been 'prepping' for this one-off since ... what, July? The basic structure of the adventure was formed fairly early on, and due to the time constraints of a one-off I couldn't really add much in the way of encounters or anything that would take up too much game time; time spent thinking about the adventure was spent mostly in trying to make what was already there richer -- backstories for NPCs, their personality traits, and so on.

(If I may -- one of my favorite bits of inconsequential fluff was an anecdote told by the publican, Iffy Pete, about his late older brother, Reliable Pete, who had been hanged for thievery many years earlier. It seems that Reliable Pete had advertised a horse for sale and proceeded to collect "earnest money" from 8 different buyers, none of whom received the horse or their money back. After giving folks the runaround for several months, Reliable Pete was eventually arrested. When the charge of receiving funds for "sale of the same horse to various parties" was read, Reliable Pete's defense had been that he couldn't possibly be guilty of that charge, having never owned a horse in his life. After a heated debate over the merits of this argument, the charge had sensibly been amended to read "sale of an immaterial horse." All agreed that this was fair enough, but when Reliable Pete went on to suggest that a fit punishment for selling an immaterial horse was an immaterial punishment, he had been hanged on the spot out of exasperation.)
Lol. This is what gets me. Little quips in this vein would be gold to a GM. But I won't push.
The tiles I found on Etsy -- the bases are actually laser-etched wood, though I expect a 3D printer and some paint would do the trick. Being wood-based, these tiles are surprisingly lightweight. The only (slight) criticism I have about them is that the piles of 'debris' are made up of tiny individual bits sprinkled onto glue, and some of these bits easily become unstuck and ... well, it's slightly untidy. But all-in-all I am very happy with them. Two sets of these tiles were used to make the layout shown earlier.
I thought as much about the material for the tiles. Balsa wood strips are great for pre-sized modular tile building. I think using them and a roller pattern would be an inexpensive way to make great fast rooms. I can also see how the walls would be messy. They look like they are strips of foam core that have been shaped, glued down and covered with a glue gun, and then the material sprinkled on top.

You might consider getting some clear Elmer's glue, mixing it with water, and then spraying it over the tiles as a fixant. 1 part glue to 3 parts water is more or less what I use for my basing materials. You can get little spray bottles at hobby stores like Hobby Lobby.
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

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I second the applause for Bret's game, which turned what could have been a banal encounter with a handful of goblins into a memorable story.
honorentheos wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:53 pm
The fact as a DM I roll bad so often, and at moments that really seem to help the PCs, could be the best evidence I've seen there is some form of deity that exists, if only one that is conjured by roleplaying games.
One time a PC decided to just jump off a really high platform, from which a fall was supposed to be obviously fatal. The platform was a feature in one of those "obstacle course under the Thieves' Guild" deals full of improbable traps and don't-think-too-much-a-wizard-did-it civil engineering. The player had somehow missed some crucial description and was under the impression that the platform wasn't so high, but as I remember he didn't explain his reasoning until after his character's fate was resolved. I might have decided that even though he, the player, might have missed the platform's height, his character could not possibly have failed to notice it, and allowed him to re-think that move. On the other hand there might have been some argument about whether it was too dark to see clearly how high the platform was, and about whether the character would have anticipated anyone placing the platform so perversely high for no obvious reason besides drama. I forget some of this background.

At any rate everybody somehow seemed to accept that the player had to roll a 20 on a d20 for his character to survive. The player asked if he could instead simply call his roll in advance, to be some number other than 20. He wanted to pick his lucky number 17. I said OK, he'd survive if he rolled 17 instead of 20. And he rolled 17.

I grabbed that die right away and rolled it quite a few times without getting 17. I checked that it only had one 17 on it. My working theory is that this die might have been slightly loaded, just by manufacturing fault, and the player had noticed that 17s seemed to come up a bit more than 5% of the time. But it was still quite a fluke.

Once the call was made, the odds of success were no worse than 1 in 20, but the call itself was unusual. That was the only time I ever had a player ask in advance to substitute another number for 20. The combination of calling a substitute number like that, and then making it, made a composite event that seemed a lot more unlikely than just 1 in 20.

It could have been some kind of trick that I just never figured out. The player didn't seem like a very tricky guy, and I don't think he was super attached to his character, but maybe the smoothest operators are like that.

Anyway I still wonder about it occasionally.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
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