Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:18 am
My experience with bounded accuracy in 5e is it keeps the wheels glued on a downhill-rolling train. PCs in 5e are insanely powerful compared to what I recall from AD&D. Sure at level 1 they could die due to a couple of unlucky rolls. But by even level 2 they feel more like mid-level PCs to me. At level 3 they all have their subclass options which definitely take them into superhero territory. And by level 5 they feel like an older higher level party. I think the sweet spot is between level 5 and 8 where spell casters are coming into their own while the melee classes are still stomping heads.
The description in the write-up doesn't accurately reflect what I think happens in games. Goblins are barely a challenge by level 3. Level 5? Why bother except as a mob serving a bigger boss. By level 10 I'd guess a party with tactical sense and min-maxed characters may be able to take on any monster in the manual with some planning and a bit of luck.
But, it also means that PCs don't have +10 magic weapons on top of abilities that given them +10 modifiers, nor +gazillion AC armor. The ends of the bell curve flatten out just barely enough that a mob of goblins is still going to get an arrow or two through, and the most powerful PC is still going to have a chance of missing when they dive in after them...even if it's a small chance.
As an example, a few sessions back my regular party was returning back through a fishing village they'd first encountered a little over a week before in game time. At that time they were merely level 8. Now they had just reached level 11. While a ways off they realized the village was burning and began rushing towards it but were still an hour away.
The village was under attack by a horde of Sahuagin and Koalinths, both CR 1/2 monsters. A monster's CR is supposed to tell you how high a level a party of four should be to find it a hard fight. CR 1? Four level 1 PCs should find just one of them challenging. Level 1/2? A level 1 party of four should be able to handle one of them with it being unlikely anyone will get seriously hurt.
I used this opportunity to have the players roll up four level zero villagers and play them in the attack. And at first the players tried playing them like heroes only to realize they couldn't just take them out in one hit while a single sahuagin could kill a couple of these level zero villagers before they could stop it. They learned quickly to hide, set up ambushes to protect themselves from any snooping sahuagin, and hope the cavalry arrived soon.
When the party came through the first time they had heard the villagers were required to pay tribute to a clan of hobgoblins that lived in the hills above the village. The party had business to attend to but thought it sounded like a protection racket so they had thoughts of handling the hobgoblins on their way back. Only it turned out the hobgoblins were legitimately protective of the villagers. After having been caught off guard by the wave of sahuagin and koalinths that surged out of the inland sea to attack the village, the hobgoblins mounted a still counter offensive. The players got a chance to be in the middle of that as zero level villages while CR 1/2 hobgoblins faced off with CR 1/2 sahuagin/koalinths.
Then the first three fastest PCs arrived. I ran this purely as theater of the mind as the mountain dwarf barbarian/artificer charged in with his great axe followed by the war cleric while the rogue began putting out fires. The barbarian has maxed out his strength at 20 so he has a +5 based on ability score. He has a proficency bonus of +4 at level 11. And his great axe is magic with a +1 to attack rolls. So he has a +10 to hit modifier. He also almost always choses to attack reckless so he has advantage. This means he rolls twice and takes the highest result, giving up advantage to an opponent when they attack. He attacks twice, too, and his great axe has a special elemental 1d4 of additional acid damage it does on a hit.
A CR 1/2 sahuagin has an AC of 12. The barbarian only misses one of them on a 1 or 2, and gets to roll twice taking the highest. So he'd have to roll a 1 or 2 on both dice to miss. That isn't likely.
On a hit, he does 1d12+6+1d4 damage. Worst case, he's doing 8 points of damage. Best case, 22. We also play that a crit does max damage plus rolling the dice. So 12+6+4 then rolling for another 8-22 points of damage. A CR 1/2 sahuagin as 22 hit points. A CR 1/2 koalinth? 13 hp offset by an AC 14.
He also gets two attacks per turn when he takes the attack action.
So he's doing 16 - 44 points of damage per turn, with a 1/20 chance of doing another 22 each attack. He could do 88 points of damage in an insanely lucky turn by himself.
Effectively the barbarian mowed them down. I described his hits as cleaving through wounded sahuagin and koalinths to then damage their allies adjacent to them. He was slaying.
Oh, and he is a totem of the bear barbarian of course, so he takes only half damage from any damage type other then psychic. His AC is 18 from natural armor now, and when he rages his 136 hp basically double to 272 hp. Whenever one got through his 18 AC and rolled their 1d8+2 damage, he basically got to see how completely irrelevant the damage was they were doing to him when he was able to take them on at a squad level or lower.
Oh, and did I mention the artificer multiclass? Yeah, so after his bonus action round one to rage, every subsequent round he uses his construct cannon to go around blasting enemies as well. It also has an AC of 18 and does 2d8+3 damage. That's another 5-19 points of damage.
Yeah he's the tank. But that's fairly indicative of why I don't think bounded accuracy means a leveled up party would feel like goblins were a problem, or the inn keeper's giant rat problem would be something to fret over.
So there is the bell curve of bounded accuracy. The sahuagin can still be used as minions at this level, the PCs feel like superheroes, but there is some small risk of getting swarmed, just because of the numbers. Toss in a few CR 5 water elementals, a CR 11 Marid, and give a few sahuagin giant barracuda they ride while slinging spears like a greek warrior riding a chariot and you have yourself a fight. Oh, and make protecting the villagers the priority so it keeps things interesting, plus a tenuous relationship with the hobgoblins who are allies but don't trust they...good times!
The description in the write-up doesn't accurately reflect what I think happens in games. Goblins are barely a challenge by level 3. Level 5? Why bother except as a mob serving a bigger boss. By level 10 I'd guess a party with tactical sense and min-maxed characters may be able to take on any monster in the manual with some planning and a bit of luck.
But, it also means that PCs don't have +10 magic weapons on top of abilities that given them +10 modifiers, nor +gazillion AC armor. The ends of the bell curve flatten out just barely enough that a mob of goblins is still going to get an arrow or two through, and the most powerful PC is still going to have a chance of missing when they dive in after them...even if it's a small chance.
As an example, a few sessions back my regular party was returning back through a fishing village they'd first encountered a little over a week before in game time. At that time they were merely level 8. Now they had just reached level 11. While a ways off they realized the village was burning and began rushing towards it but were still an hour away.
The village was under attack by a horde of Sahuagin and Koalinths, both CR 1/2 monsters. A monster's CR is supposed to tell you how high a level a party of four should be to find it a hard fight. CR 1? Four level 1 PCs should find just one of them challenging. Level 1/2? A level 1 party of four should be able to handle one of them with it being unlikely anyone will get seriously hurt.
I used this opportunity to have the players roll up four level zero villagers and play them in the attack. And at first the players tried playing them like heroes only to realize they couldn't just take them out in one hit while a single sahuagin could kill a couple of these level zero villagers before they could stop it. They learned quickly to hide, set up ambushes to protect themselves from any snooping sahuagin, and hope the cavalry arrived soon.
When the party came through the first time they had heard the villagers were required to pay tribute to a clan of hobgoblins that lived in the hills above the village. The party had business to attend to but thought it sounded like a protection racket so they had thoughts of handling the hobgoblins on their way back. Only it turned out the hobgoblins were legitimately protective of the villagers. After having been caught off guard by the wave of sahuagin and koalinths that surged out of the inland sea to attack the village, the hobgoblins mounted a still counter offensive. The players got a chance to be in the middle of that as zero level villages while CR 1/2 hobgoblins faced off with CR 1/2 sahuagin/koalinths.
Then the first three fastest PCs arrived. I ran this purely as theater of the mind as the mountain dwarf barbarian/artificer charged in with his great axe followed by the war cleric while the rogue began putting out fires. The barbarian has maxed out his strength at 20 so he has a +5 based on ability score. He has a proficency bonus of +4 at level 11. And his great axe is magic with a +1 to attack rolls. So he has a +10 to hit modifier. He also almost always choses to attack reckless so he has advantage. This means he rolls twice and takes the highest result, giving up advantage to an opponent when they attack. He attacks twice, too, and his great axe has a special elemental 1d4 of additional acid damage it does on a hit.
A CR 1/2 sahuagin has an AC of 12. The barbarian only misses one of them on a 1 or 2, and gets to roll twice taking the highest. So he'd have to roll a 1 or 2 on both dice to miss. That isn't likely.
On a hit, he does 1d12+6+1d4 damage. Worst case, he's doing 8 points of damage. Best case, 22. We also play that a crit does max damage plus rolling the dice. So 12+6+4 then rolling for another 8-22 points of damage. A CR 1/2 sahuagin as 22 hit points. A CR 1/2 koalinth? 13 hp offset by an AC 14.
He also gets two attacks per turn when he takes the attack action.
So he's doing 16 - 44 points of damage per turn, with a 1/20 chance of doing another 22 each attack. He could do 88 points of damage in an insanely lucky turn by himself.
Effectively the barbarian mowed them down. I described his hits as cleaving through wounded sahuagin and koalinths to then damage their allies adjacent to them. He was slaying.
Oh, and he is a totem of the bear barbarian of course, so he takes only half damage from any damage type other then psychic. His AC is 18 from natural armor now, and when he rages his 136 hp basically double to 272 hp. Whenever one got through his 18 AC and rolled their 1d8+2 damage, he basically got to see how completely irrelevant the damage was they were doing to him when he was able to take them on at a squad level or lower.
Oh, and did I mention the artificer multiclass? Yeah, so after his bonus action round one to rage, every subsequent round he uses his construct cannon to go around blasting enemies as well. It also has an AC of 18 and does 2d8+3 damage. That's another 5-19 points of damage.
Yeah he's the tank. But that's fairly indicative of why I don't think bounded accuracy means a leveled up party would feel like goblins were a problem, or the inn keeper's giant rat problem would be something to fret over.
So there is the bell curve of bounded accuracy. The sahuagin can still be used as minions at this level, the PCs feel like superheroes, but there is some small risk of getting swarmed, just because of the numbers. Toss in a few CR 5 water elementals, a CR 11 Marid, and give a few sahuagin giant barracuda they ride while slinging spears like a greek warrior riding a chariot and you have yourself a fight. Oh, and make protecting the villagers the priority so it keeps things interesting, plus a tenuous relationship with the hobgoblins who are allies but don't trust they...good times!