DiscussMormonism.com

Nope, this is not a thread about an upcoming American revolution. It’s a podcast I stumbled upon. It’s an in depth look at revolutions. The first three seasons are the English, French, and American revolutions.

I started out with the fourth season: The Haitian revolution. I knew next to nothing about the Haitian revolution, and the story is fascinating. At the time, Haiti’s coffee and sugar plantations made it the richest colony in the world. That wealth was earned on the backs of a brutal regime of slave labor.

Haiti was a French colony, but England and Spain wanted it for themselves. And the French Revolution gave them opportunities to extend influence over, or even capture, the colony.

The revolution had both class and race aspects. Haitian was made up of five class-race groups: White rich plantation owners, white working class, free coloreds (both working class and plantation owners) and black slaves. Against the backdrop of the struggles among the three great European powers, these five groups maneuvered and fought to control Haiti and its resources. Because the black slaves far outnumbered the other groups, they were recruited into fighting proxy wars for the others.

It’s a fascinating story with plenty of twists and turns as Haiti tries to cope with the instability of the French Revolution. And the story of the first large scale slave revolt in history.

https://open.spotify.com/show/05lvdf9T7 ... EkqbzpUjMw

It is fascinating to see a successful revolution. Does it give any explanation for why Haiti is such a craphole now?

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:47 pm

It is fascinating to see a successful revolution. Does it give any explanation for why Haiti is such a craphole now?

https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/ ... _BReFc2nPA

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:47 pm

It is fascinating to see a successful revolution. Does it give any explanation for why Haiti is such a craphole now?

Since the events discussed by Res Ipsa occurred around 1791–1804, I think that the present state of the country might more probably be related to more recent events.

Have you considered, for instance, the corrupt and terror-based rule of the country by 'Papa Doc' Duvalier from 1957-71? That might have had some influence on the state of the country, don't you think? And then of course there was the devastating earthquake of 12 January 2010. To say nothing of the not always benign influence of Haiti's neighbours, small and large. It's not a lucky country.

Since the events discussed by Res Ipsa occurred around 1791–1804, I think that the present state of the country might more probably be related to more recent events.

Tell that to black people in the US still suffering from 19th century US slavery.

Have you considered, for instance, the corrupt and terror-based rule of the country by 'Papa Doc' Duvalier from 1957-71?

Maybe. Why didn't this happen in the US?

Chap wrote:Have you considered, for instance, the corrupt and terror-based rule of the country by 'Papa Doc' Duvalier from 1957-71?

Ajax wrote:Maybe. Why didn't this happen in the US?

Because Trump wasn't popular enough to win the 2020 election. His attempts at a coup and his rampant fraud has not been successful in securing him a lifetime dictatorship over the United States.

Chap wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:20 pm

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:47 pm

It is fascinating to see a successful revolution. Does it give any explanation for why Haiti is such a craphole now?

Since the events discussed by Res Ipsa occurred around 1791–1804, I think that the present state of the country might more probably be related to more recent events.

Have you considered, for instance, the corrupt and terror-based rule of the country by 'Papa Doc' Duvalier from 1957-71? That might have had some influence on the state of the country, don't you think? And then of course there was the devastating earthquake of 12 January 2010. To say nothing of the not always benign influence of Haiti's neighbours, small and large. It's not a lucky country.

The effects of colonialism were pretty devastating for Haiti. The colony generated lots of wealth, which was expropriated by France and the other big powers. It wasn’t used to build infrastructure or accumulate wealth for the country. The US was a natural trading partner for Haiti, but the southern states were scared to death that slave revolts were contagious.

And the wealth was created by slavery. The sugar and coffee industries were profitable because of the slave labor force. And the slave labor force was more highly leveraged than in the US. So, when France left, it was a country filled with the poorest of the poor.

And France didn’t leave empty handed. To end the war, Haiti had to agree to pay reparations to the white plantation owners that had enslaved most of the population. The original amount was 150 million Francs, later reduced to 90 million. The obligation was fully paid off in 1947.

So, while other countries were investing in themselves, Haiti was paying off the people who had enslaved them.

But you have to be willing to invest time and effort to get beyond “black people are lazy” as an explanation.

So, while other countries were investing in themselves, Haiti was paying off the people who had enslaved them.

That doesn't sound like a very successful revolution to me. If you still have to pay people who enslaved you, did you really win the war?

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:12 am

So, while other countries were investing in themselves, Haiti was paying off the people who had enslaved them.

That doesn't sound like a very successful revolution to me. If you still have to pay people who enslaved you, did you really win the war?

Most revolutions are not very successful. The United States got lucky. But of course you knew that.

Sen. Mitt Romney has this to say about the planned insurrection on January 6, 2021:

Adding to this ill-conceived endeavor by some in Congress is the President’s call for his supporters to come to the Capitol on the day when this matter is to be debated and decided. This has the predictable potential to lead to disruption, and worse.

I could never have imagined seeing these things in the greatest democracy in the world. Has ambition so eclipsed principle?