Challenge to Ajax and Subgenius

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Gunnar
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Re: Challenge to Ajax and Subgenius

Post by Gunnar »

Chap wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:02 pm
Gunnar wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:31 pm
a democratically elected communist type government that respects the rights of minorities and the right to freedom of speech and religion
I am sure you realise that for ajax that is the equivalent to referring to 'a bucket full of hot ice'.

And although you do cite one example of such a thing, the combination you mention does seem to be rather rare in the historical record. Perhaps you might agree that you are not talking about a government that establishes a communist system of society (the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange; from each according to their ability and from each according to their needs), but more about a government run by people who are Marxists - which is a rather different thing altogether, and is not necessarily incompatible with (say) the continuation of private property and private enterprise.
You're right, I do realize and understand all the above. Obviously ajax does not, and obstinately refuses even to try to understand or even consider it.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Re: Challenge to Ajax and Subgenius

Post by Gunnar »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:04 pm
You may find this shocking, but I would rather live in a democratically elected communist type government
No I don't find it shocking.

that respects the rights of minorities and the right to freedom of speech and religion
I guess you mean racial minorities or gays. But free speech doesn't mean you'd allow diversity in political opinion. So things like Fox News, Parler, etc. would have to be deplatformed, right?
No! I emphatically do not mean only racial minorities or gays! I mean all law abiding and mutually respectful minorities. And contrary to what you tried to imply, I believe that free speech must include allowing diversity in political opinion. Don't try to put words in my mouth! If either of us two would disallow diversity in political opinion it is obviously you, not me, based on what I have seen of your posts. I think you are projecting again, as you so often do. Free speech to me implies both the right and the obligation to honestly express one's real opinions. The dark side of free speech is claiming the right to lie one's head off, with complete impunity, whenever advantageous to one' own selfish interests, regardless of whom may be hurt by it. It has long been glaringly obvious that this is the aspect of free speech that appeals most to Trump and his conservative enablers. I won't deny, however, that politicians of all stripes can be and have been guilty of that from time to time.

Fox News, Parler, etc do not have to be "deplatformed", but they should be subject to aggressive fact checking and being called out for deliberately lying and misinforming, and should suffer legal consequences whenever they publish or allow inciting violence, death threats or deliberate slander towards political or ideological adversaries.

And I will not back away from or apologize for preferring to live in a communist or Marxist society that is genuinely democratic and respectful of diverse minorities and individual liberty, than in any kind of tyranny, capitalist or otherwise. Completely unfettered and unregulated, no-holds-barred capitalism is every bit as brutal and terrible as the worst possible Marxist tyranny.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
Chap
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Re: Challenge to Ajax and Subgenius

Post by Chap »

Gunnar wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:57 am
The dark side of free speech is claiming the right to lie one's head off, with complete impunity, whenever advantageous to one' own selfish interests, regardless of whom may be hurt by it. It has long been glaringly obvious that this is the aspect of free speech that appeals most to Trump and his conservative enablers. I won't deny, however, that politicians of all stripes can be and have been guilty of that from time to time.
So far as I am aware, the First Amendment stops the law from forbidding someone to speak at all. It does not however:

(a) Protect the speaker from consequences of false and malicious speech acts: hence the laws on slander, and on misleading claims in advertising.

(b) Oblige anybody to repeat or broadcast the speech of the individual in question.

And that's the way Trump has been treated: he has been allowed his First Amendment right to free speech, but then has been impeached for the foreseeable effect of his speech in inciting an angry mob to march on the Capitol, and various media have ceased to allow him to use their platforms. No problem.
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Gunnar
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Re: Challenge to Ajax and Subgenius

Post by Gunnar »

Chap wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:16 am
So far as I am aware, the First Amendment stops the law from forbidding someone to speak at all. It does not however:

(a) Protect the speaker from consequences of false and malicious speech acts: hence the laws on slander, and on misleading claims in advertising.

(b) Oblige anybody to repeat or broadcast the speech of the individual in question.

And that's the way Trump has been treated: he has been allowed his First Amendment right to free speech, but then has been impeached for the foreseeable effect of his speech in inciting an angry mob to march on the Capitol, and various media have ceased to allow him to use their platforms. No problem.
The lies I am talking about that Trump probably thinks are protected by the first amendment are lies about factual and scientific reality like climate change, environmental issues, election results, electoral fraud and security, the real causes of societal problems, the real cause of the pandemic and how to combat it, etc. I realize, and I think even he does, that slandering and falsely accusing people, inciting to riot etc. that more directly hurt individuals are harder to get away with legally. In contrast, he can lie all he wants to about the earth being flat, for example, or whether NASA really sent men to the moon, or about economic theory, his military expertise, etc., with little or no fear of any legal restrictions or consequences.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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ajax18
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Re: Challenge to Ajax and Subgenius

Post by ajax18 »

CNN has not been deplatformed for falsely reporting that Jacob Blake was unarmed and inciting the riots in Kenosha, which a reasonable person would know would be the result.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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ajax18
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Re: Challenge to Ajax and Subgenius

Post by ajax18 »

Fox News, Parler, etc do not have to be "deplatformed", but they should be subject to aggressive fact checking and being called out for deliberately lying and misinforming, and should suffer legal consequences whenever they publish or allow inciting violence, death threats or deliberate slander towards political or ideological adversaries.
Fact checks are politically biased and have lost credibility. When we get our own networks, we'll exercise our rights as a private company to ban you just as Facebook and Twitter has done to us.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
Chap
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Re: Challenge to Ajax and Subgenius

Post by Chap »

ajax18 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:38 pm
Fact checks are politically biased and have lost credibility.
C'mon ajax. Some things are true, and some are false. You get to have your own opinions, but you don't get to have your own facts. And that's what fact checking is about.

If fact checking makes you feel uncomfortable, maybe you need to ask why that is.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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MeDotOrg
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Re: Challenge to Ajax and Subgenius

Post by MeDotOrg »

Gunnar wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:12 am
Chap wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:02 pm


I am sure you realise that for ajax that is the equivalent to referring to 'a bucket full of hot ice'.

And although you do cite one example of such a thing, the combination you mention does seem to be rather rare in the historical record. Perhaps you might agree that you are not talking about a government that establishes a communist system of society (the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange; from each according to their ability and from each according to their needs), but more about a government run by people who are Marxists - which is a rather different thing altogether, and is not necessarily incompatible with (say) the continuation of private property and private enterprise.
You're right, I do realize and understand all the above. Obviously ajax does not, and obstinately refuses even to try to understand or even consider it.
One of my favorite quotes is Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right. I would modify that slightly and say Never let your ideology prevent you from doing what works. If someone asks if I'm a Capitalist or a Socialist, the answer is I'm a pragmatist. Neither is the right answer all of the time. Countries should base their economic systems on what works. The answer is admitedly complicated, and defining what works is the rub. For so many years we have looked at the Dow Jones and NASDAQ as defining how we are doing. But for the vast majority of Americans, who don't scan the Dow at the end of every day, there are other measures of happiness like health care, sick days, good public transportation.

I was thinking tonight that a lot of the functions that we are now asking of government are things that we used to ask of unions. The cost of what we think of as Socialism was padded into prices we paid when we bought things tjat were Union made. As global supply chains have decimated the power of local unions, the quality of life crept down for working Americans, and the Union perks of their fathers and grandfathers are long gone.

It's funny, but when Communist countries start experimenting with Capitalism, there are invariably those who complain of backsliding, of not being true to the revolution. Economic systems should exist to serve us, not the other way 'round.
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ajax18
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Re: Challenge to Ajax and Subgenius

Post by ajax18 »

I would modify that slightly and say Never let your ideology prevent you from doing what works.
Ben Shapiro has reminded me that there are good hearted liberals certainly should not be confused with the radical left. I don't agree with MeDotOrg on much but I do consider him above reverse racism, discrimination based on political party, the censorship, and cancel culture that defines the modern left. I wish him the best.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Re: Challenge to Ajax and Subgenius

Post by Molok »

ajax18 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:38 pm
Fox News, Parler, etc do not have to be "deplatformed", but they should be subject to aggressive fact checking and being called out for deliberately lying and misinforming, and should suffer legal consequences whenever they publish or allow inciting violence, death threats or deliberate slander towards political or ideological adversaries.
Fact checks are politically biased and have lost credibility. When we get our own networks, we'll exercise our rights as a private company to ban you just as Facebook and Twitter has done to us.
Fact checking has lost all credibility with the people whose lies have been exposed by the fact checking? This shocks me.
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