Will this Kind of Outrage Never Stop?

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Jersey Girl
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Re: Will this Kind of Outrage Never Stop?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:56 pm
Personally I believe he was appropriately charged and rightfully found guilty when viewed not in context of the media coverage, but from the trial - if you paid attention to it.
I watched all of it except for the closing statements and only because I didn't have time. And yes, I agree with the outcome.
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Re: Will this Kind of Outrage Never Stop?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:24 pm
Jersey Girl wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:31 pm
GUILTY AF
I’ve never seen a verdict form that used those terms, but they might be applicable in this case.
I had about 5 secs to devote to the post.
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Re: Will this Kind of Outrage Never Stop?

Post by Res Ipsa »

It got the job done.
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Re: Will this Kind of Outrage Never Stop?

Post by Gunnar »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:56 pm
I know there are people freaking out over this, but my biggest takeaway is that a jury weighed the evidenced and found the accused guilty. Our judicial system, whatever one thinks of it, is pretty remarkable sometimes. Personally I believe he was appropriately charged and rightfully found guilty when viewed not in context of the media coverage, but from the trial - if you paid attention to it. I’m glad to see that a person who in the past would’ve had a good chance at walking because he’s a LEO and the victim who was objectively not awesome from a legal perspective, both received justice. I think my only real add-on would be that, imho, real justice would’ve come in the form of our society shifting our massive funding of a military industrial complex to a mental and physical healthcare system that helps instead of criminalizes. We’re way too aggressive and adversarial with one another, systemically. I know the world has a lot of issues, but I’m not sure we should be expending treasury dollars on everyone else when we’re decaying from within. An anecdote:

My neighbor has a daughter who’s been in and out of jail due to drug addiction and her related actions. She even lost her children to the state. I was talking to the neighbor and she mentioned that her daughter went to a treatment program ran by the Other Side Academy here in SLC. There she finally was diagnosed by a psychiatrist, treated, made it through the program, and stabilized enough to become a staff member. For the first time in her life her brain is balanced out, and she has a meaningful existence. Instead of jail, crime, and an early death she actually has a shot to live a life free from the bonds of addiction and mental illness.

I’d like to see more of that, and less of us dropping ordinance on some cave dwellers at literally millions per mission. The cost of warfare is a sin so egregious and onerous that it turns my stomach when I see hundreds of Americans walking around like zombies in my own city. There has to be a middle ground between what we’ve been doing and ‘free everything’. Surely we can figure this out.

- Doc
I love that post! It ranks near the very top of my favorite of your posts! How could anyone who is both rational and compassionate object to the sentiments you expressed here? Two thumbs up and both big toes as well!
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Re: Will this Kind of Outrage Never Stop?

Post by Gunnar »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:40 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:56 pm
Personally I believe he was appropriately charged and rightfully found guilty when viewed not in context of the media coverage, but from the trial - if you paid attention to it.
I watched all of it except for the closing statements and only because I didn't have time. And yes, I agree with the outcome.
I braced myself for possible disappointment, but it turned out the way thought and hoped it would. I feel a great sense of relief!
Last edited by Gunnar on Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will this Kind of Outrage Never Stop?

Post by Res Ipsa »

Gunnar wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:26 am
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:56 pm
I know there are people freaking out over this, but my biggest takeaway is that a jury weighed the evidenced and found the accused guilty. Our judicial system, whatever one thinks of it, is pretty remarkable sometimes. Personally I believe he was appropriately charged and rightfully found guilty when viewed not in context of the media coverage, but from the trial - if you paid attention to it. I’m glad to see that a person who in the past would’ve had a good chance at walking because he’s a LEO and the victim who was objectively not awesome from a legal perspective, both received justice. I think my only real add-on would be that, imho, real justice would’ve come in the form of our society shifting our massive funding of a military industrial complex to a mental and physical healthcare system that helps instead of criminalizes. We’re way too aggressive and adversarial with one another, systemically. I know the world has a lot of issues, but I’m not sure we should be expending treasury dollars on everyone else when we’re decaying from within. An anecdote:

My neighbor has a daughter who’s been in and out of jail due to drug addiction and her related actions. She even lost her children to the state. I was talking to the neighbor and she mentioned that her daughter went to a treatment program ran by the Other Side Academy here in SLC. There she finally was diagnosed by a psychiatrist, treated, made it through the program, and stabilized enough to become a staff member. For the first time in her life her brain is balanced out, and she has a meaningful existence. Instead of jail, crime, and an early death she actually has a shot to live a life free from the bonds of addiction and mental illness.

I’d like to see more of that, and less of us dropping ordinance on some cave dwellers at literally millions per mission. The cost of warfare is a sin so egregious and onerous that it turns my stomach when I see hundreds of Americans walking around like zombies in my own city. There has to be a middle ground between what we’ve been doing and ‘free everything’. Surely we can figure this out.

- Doc
I love that post! It ranks near the very top of my favorite of your posts! How could anyone who is both rational and compassionate object to the sentiments you expressed here? Two thumbs up and both big toes as well!
It's really become apparent to me how poorly we address certain problems in our country: crime, mental health, and homelessness. We treat our fellow humans as disposable rather than the valuable resources we need to actually have a great country. The criminal justice system is making some improvement. But we seem to have mostly thrown up our hands when it comes to mental health and homelessness. It's just crazy.
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Re: Will this Kind of Outrage Never Stop?

Post by Icarus »

Gunnar wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:26 am
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:56 pm
I know there are people freaking out over this, but my biggest takeaway is that a jury weighed the evidenced and found the accused guilty. Our judicial system, whatever one thinks of it, is pretty remarkable sometimes. Personally I believe he was appropriately charged and rightfully found guilty when viewed not in context of the media coverage, but from the trial - if you paid attention to it. I’m glad to see that a person who in the past would’ve had a good chance at walking because he’s a LEO and the victim who was objectively not awesome from a legal perspective, both received justice. I think my only real add-on would be that, imho, real justice would’ve come in the form of our society shifting our massive funding of a military industrial complex to a mental and physical healthcare system that helps instead of criminalizes. We’re way too aggressive and adversarial with one another, systemically. I know the world has a lot of issues, but I’m not sure we should be expending treasury dollars on everyone else when we’re decaying from within. An anecdote:

My neighbor has a daughter who’s been in and out of jail due to drug addiction and her related actions. She even lost her children to the state. I was talking to the neighbor and she mentioned that her daughter went to a treatment program ran by the Other Side Academy here in SLC. There she finally was diagnosed by a psychiatrist, treated, made it through the program, and stabilized enough to become a staff member. For the first time in her life her brain is balanced out, and she has a meaningful existence. Instead of jail, crime, and an early death she actually has a shot to live a life free from the bonds of addiction and mental illness.

I’d like to see more of that, and less of us dropping ordinance on some cave dwellers at literally millions per mission. The cost of warfare is a sin so egregious and onerous that it turns my stomach when I see hundreds of Americans walking around like zombies in my own city. There has to be a middle ground between what we’ve been doing and ‘free everything’. Surely we can figure this out.

- Doc
I love that post! It ranks near the very top of my favorite of your posts! How could anyone who is both rational and compassionate object to the sentiments you expressed here? Two thumbs up and both big toes as well!
Agreed, great post but this is really common sense. I'll expect ajax to find a way to object to it. This notion that there needs to be services provided for the mentally ill outside of law enforcement is something the Left has been trying to point out for years. It is really the basis behind the misnomer "defund" the police. What they're saying is to stop spending so much money into the militarization of the police and use that money to provide services for the mentally ill. They need to come up with an entirely different or organization and even a different emergency number for mental illness related emergencies. Instead of 911, maybe 811. How many times do cops kill the autistic, the mentally retarded, etc, simply because they're trained to treat everyone as a potential threat and they're told to err on the side of caution, meaning assume they're dangerous is they're not talking and take defensive measures even if it means killing that person because you feel like he or she may want to kill you first?

https://khn.org/news/police-killing-men ... nsylvania/

Consider this story:

My wife has a nervous breakdown about 7 years ago. She had been previously diagnosed bi-polar and hadn't slept in five days. She appeared to be sleep walking and rambling incoherently. She grabbed a knife from the kitchen drawer and pressed it against her stomach saying she wants to kill herself. I tried to grab it from her but she kept running around the kitchen island. I realized I wasn't going to be able to get the knife away so I called 911 and explained that my wife was threatening suicide with a knife. I also began to record the incident on my phone for my own protection - in the event does harm herself (I'd be a suspect). I tried to calm her down and talk her out of it for about five minutes. I then went upstairs and grabbed my one year old and told her to look at him before she does anything. She began crying and dropped the knife as the doorbell rang. No fewer than four cop cars were in the street and a total of eight police officers were on our porch. I let them in and the lead officer began to question my wife in isolation as another officer took me aside to question me. As I explained the situation, I began to show the officer the video footage of what I recorded. The officer stopped immediately and brought my phone to the other officers where they all watched the incident as it played out. My wife noticed what they were watching, and feeling betrayed, she began to punch me violently on my shoulder while I still had our one year old in my arms. She is a small woman and her punches didn't hurt, but the lead officer treated her as if she had just fired a gun and threw her down to the ground violently and explained to her, "Do you understand that you just committed an assault in front of eight officers"? I tried to explain to him that she hadn't slept in days and was going through some kind of mental breakdown. I begged them not to arrest her and to be gentle because she is on the edge of something serious. I insisted she needed medical help, but they hauled her off in cuffs in front of the neighbors as if she just robbed a liquor store. The officer promised me he wasn't going to file charges and said he would be taking her to a "facility" that wasn't jail. He said I would get a phone call with instructions on how to get her. So I waited thinking I'd get a call in a couple hours. But days passed by. Every day I called the police station demanding to know where my wife was and they always told me the same thing. That someone would eventually call me to explain what they're doing with her. Four days had passed when I finally got a call from some guy who sounded like he was half asleep. He wasn't particularly nice or helpful. He said they had her at a facility about two hours north of where we live but refused to tell me the name of the location. He asked me questions about her history, I explained in detail her situation and insisted she needed to be on some kind of medication. But he kept asking weird questions that made me wonder if he was trying to prove she was faking. I asked when I could pick her up, and he said he'll decide if that's acceptable in a few more days. There was no phone number for me to call him back, I just had to wait for him to reach out whenever he decided to. Ultimately she was there for 6 days, and she was forced to bunk not with other people with mental illnesses, but rather drug addicts and people who had been arrested but were trying to fight their addictions. It was basically an open room with no windows. Every morning she'd wake up and be forced to participate in these AA type meetings where everyone sits around and takes turns talking, but she said several times people ended up getting into violent fits of rage and she was terrified of her surroundings. After about a week I got a call saying I could pick her up the next day at noon. There was no indication that the person I spoke with was a trained health professional, and he prescribed nothing for her. All he did really was threaten to have her arrested and charged if she does it again! To this day that week haunts her as one of the most terrifying of her life. Had I known this is how things would have played out, I likely never would have called 911 to begin with. Calling the cops is always going to be my last option. They're far more likely to “F” things up and make it much worse.

I later asked a neighbor friend whose Dad is in law enforcement, why she was taken to such a horrible place to begin with. He said they likely didn't know what else to do with her if they weren't going to charge her. They don't distinguish between criminals and those who need professional mental health.

Don’t ever call the police. They are first responders and code enforcers for the state. They are not tasked to protect your community.
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Re: Will this Kind of Outrage Never Stop?

Post by MeDotOrg »

Icarus wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:07 am
Don’t ever call the police. They are first responders and code enforcers for the state. They are not tasked to protect your community.
Many years ago I was living in a huge 2-story flat in one of Can'tAffordToLiveHere San Francisco situations, where 6 people shared this amazing old building with floor to ceiling wood paneling and fireplaces.

One of the women that lived there had a boyfriend who freaked out, I think a combination of drugs and mental illness. He threw his girlfriend's cat out of a 2nd story window. Police were called, he was wrestled down and taken away. I was so impressed with how well the police handled the situation I actually wrote an 'attaboy' letter to San Francisco PD.

All of the people involved in our flat were white. The incident happened in an area near Haight-Ashbury, where cops routinely confront people on drugs. The group of officers was racially mixed. Sociologically, my situation was probably a best-case scenario.

And yet I would have to agree that it was the kind of situation that could be handled by first responders. The law had been broken, but the object at that point was to diffuse the situation. The problem is that a failure to comply with a lawful request from a police officer is an attack on their authority. When that respect erodes, being a police officer becomes an increasingly dangerous profession.

We should try to lead with a non-confrontational first responder. Just understand that there will be times when a first responder will not be enough to handle the situation. The hand-off to Police is something that needs to be a part of contingency planning for first responders AND police departments.
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Re: Will this Kind of Outrage Never Stop?

Post by Gunnar »

Icarus wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:07 am
I later asked a neighbor friend whose Dad is in law enforcement, why she was taken to such a horrible place to begin with. He said they likely didn't know what else to do with her if they weren't going to charge her. They don't distinguish between criminals and those who need professional mental health.

Don’t ever call the police. They are first responders and code enforcers for the state. They are not tasked to protect your community.
I would think and hope that there are a lot of law enforcement officers who would rather not be the default go to first responders in case of people who need such help. Would you agree that part of the problem is probably a shortage of the type of mental health professionals properly trained to handle such situations?
Last edited by Gunnar on Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will this Kind of Outrage Never Stop?

Post by Gunnar »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:36 am
It's really become apparent to me how poorly we address certain problems in our country: crime, mental health, and homelessness. We treat our fellow humans as disposable rather than the valuable resources we need to actually have a great country. The criminal justice system is making some improvement. But we seem to have mostly thrown up our hands when it comes to mental health and homelessness. It's just crazy.
I hope the George Floyd case and consequent trial of Derek Chauvin has raised enough awareness of these deficiencies to begin to accelerate the movement towards that much needed improvement.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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