On Sensitivity and Specificity

[Chap]

So, in a nutshell, what’s the difference between cultural fusion and cultural appropriation for us plebians?
- Doc

n my experience, those are not the names of two separate things with a well-defined and objective content. They are just a couple of verbal gestures used by people with different rhetorical aims. Speaking personally, I have no use for either.

When is culture "well-defined and objective"? You're kidding me.

Nope. I was responding to DrC's faux-naif question in what I thought was the appropriate manner. And I truly don't have much use for either term in trying to capture my own experience.

(by the way: yes, we do seem to agree. I just don't claim to be any kind of imam!)

[huckelberry]

Yup. I had sort of noticed that.

I think it's because, while white supremest ideology is a thing, so are its more secretive siblings, whom, like Voldemort, do not wish to be named. Racist tropes depend on the concept that the culture of one group (in this case, Europeans) is superior to every other marginalized, colonized, and ignored group. This is done, in part, by saying that all the valuable and good aspects of culture are were invented by us. Another way this is accomplished is by adopting what we see as the desirable aspects of another culture and saying, "See, we took this and improved on it!"

I imagine that this tendency is an especially sensitive subject when it presents around indicators of culture like art, literature, and music.

.

Hi Morley. Your comments and reply are of the sort that provoke thought which I hoped for. I hope I can respond with perhaps a few disagreements without being disagreeable.

You brought up colonialism in Africa.I am slow to relate that to cultural appropriation. Europeans seized land. resources. means of production. ownership of the product,access to lucrative markets and kept Africans as labor. Europeans enjoyed the riches and Africans got poverty and culturally broken up. Is dragging some artist in Paris into this a way to avoid the obvious matter of who is enjoying the fruits of this arrangement in Africa?

Well the money must figure into this. Huge funds have been invested in the Picasso business. He got rich and others have investmenats significantly dependent upon his reputation. One can take that as a warning that perhaps supporters (promoters?) have been careful to emphasize the creative dimension for Picasso and decrease his dependencies. After all part of the myth was Picasso super inventor. The difficulty I see in that line oft thought is that Picasso was such a strong and inventive painter that he is tough to tear down.

I can certainly appreciate developments expanding who is seen as important for art beyond white males in Europe or America. The world and the human family has riches to explore appreciate and understand. I think as Chap implies that rules limiting cuiltural appropration do not offer any help in that process as far as I can see.

My comment about White boys playing rock and roll was an exaggeration of course but I have heard comments that come close to that. (that Elvis singing our songs ..) The money distribution was unfair and in the past black musicians were really ripped of by music companies. Muddy Waters had better attitude about the Rolling Stones using his music. He figured the attention would help his finances and reputation.

In a parallel way I think Picasso helps European people understand and appreciate African art by touching the arts strength. His dissembling remark abour not using African masks as inspiration in Demoiselles has not prevented that.

[Morley]

Huckelberry. Again, thank you. I agree with most of what you say.

Few in Picasso's day cared a fig about appropriation. Any critiques of Picasso are really about us today. We make a statement to present artists and patrons (and society at large) that the culture has changed, and we do this by referring to what we are now calling the sins of the past--except in the past, they weren't really sins. It's the Fine Arts equivalent of tearing down a statue of Forrest Bedford.

I think with Rock and Roll, the problem wasn't as much with "Elvis singing our songs," it was with the perception that the larger, dominant (read: White) culture wouldn't buy the music if it was sung by a 'negro,' but would if it came from a white boy in tight pants. It was then (and is still) more a critique of American society and the music industry than it was of Elvis, himself.

.

[Morley]

So, in a nutshell, what’s the difference between cultural fusion and cultural appropriation for us plebians?
- Doc

n my experience, those are not the names of two separate things with a well-defined and objective content. They are just a couple of verbal gestures used by people with different rhetorical aims. Speaking personally, I have no use for either.

When is culture "well-defined and objective"? You're kidding me.

Nope. I was responding to DrC's faux-naif question in what I thought was the appropriate manner. And I truly don't have much use for either term in trying to capture my own experience.

(by the way: yes, we do seem to agree. I just don't claim to be any kind of imam!)

Thanks, Chap. I misread you.

.

[huckelberry]

Beckman, "Il est tres fort"

Morley I may not have moved the conversation about appropriation forward much. I am tempted to follow art history digressions.

I was in art history classes in the late 1960's. At that time I was reading all of the art magazines. It was the time of the end of art history, or at least the end of the established narrative of modern art. Critic's articles fought over the meaning of the final. Greenburg, true flatness. Donald Judd, well Donald Judd of course. I found his articles awful to read but could not help but be fascinated by his work , in a sort of perverse way. They seemed to search for pure presence with all artfulness gone. A few years ago I visited Taos. Their museum had a Judd sculpture used as a place to sit. Sit and contemplate Agnes Martin grids. I found sitting on a Judd satisfying.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
note on my post correction. My french is very very rusty. I started doubting the e on the end of the word fort so checked it , e ending is feminine. Il is masculine. He is very strong. Picasso assessment of Max Beckman and one I share. Beckman is a favorite of mine.

[Morley]

Beckman, "Ill est tres forté"

Morley I may not have moved the conversation about appropriation forward much. I am tempted to follow art history digressions.

I was in art history classes in the late 1960's. At that time I was reading all of the art magazines. It was the time of the end of art history, or at least the end of the established narrative of modern art. Critic's articles fought over the meaning of the final. Greenburg, true flatness. Donald Judd, well Donald Judd of course. I found his articles awful to read but could not help but be fascinated by his work , in a sort of perverse way. They seemed to search for pure presence with all artfulness gone. A few years ago I visited Taos. Their museum had a Judd sculpture used as a place to sit. Sit and contemplate Agnes Martin grids. I found sitting on a Judd satisfying.

For Donald Judd, perhaps you should have taken a extra day and driven to Marfa. I understand it’s incredible.
.

[huckelberry]

For Donald Judd, perhaps you should have taken a extra day and driven to Marfa. I understand it’s incredible.
.

I might have thought about Marfa but my wife would have had little interest. We shared more appreciation for the art in the old church interiors. I do not know detail in the history of style development but the combination of Spanish and native American expression made for strong beautiful art.We had the chance to spend time in the church in Chimayo as well as the old church in Taos.

[Lem]

For Donald Judd, perhaps you should have taken a extra day and driven to Marfa. I understand it’s incredible.
.

I might have thought about Marfa but my wife would have had little interest. We shared more appreciation for the art in the old church interiors. I do not know detail in the history of style development but the combination of Spanish and native American expression made for strong beautiful art.We had the chance to spend time in the church in Chimayo as well as the old church in Taos.

You are reminding me of my southwestern childhood. Too bad youth is wasted on the young! I recall so many field trips to such lovely places where we saw "the combination of Spanish and native American expression," but didn't know enough, as youths, to slow down and appreciate.

We live on the East coast now, but are in the process of planning a trip back to enjoy exactly that. Your comments are very interesting in that respect, thanks!

[huckelberry]

Lem, my best wishes for your trip. I think even the simple part of the change in landscape is worth enjoying.

[Morley]

Absolutely.