In Which Res Ipsa Abandons the Illusion of Control Over What People Post In a Thread f/k/a Thinking About ...

[Res Ipsa]

Hey your thinking seems really cloudy today. Whatsamatter? Not getting any?

Even that, objectifies women and places them in a submissive role.

Yep.

[Jersey Girl]

Well. I am just going to hang back for a bit and see what the male posters can come up with in the department of equivalent insults.

[Jersey Girl]

Let's consider the thoughtlessness of the remark in question that was ironically used as a rhetorical device to challenge a female's thinking and make true her accusation of sexism. Guys, I'm going there. If you choose to go there with me, please do. Just please read carefully and know that I'm doing the best that I can with what I've got to work with here.

What about ovaries and a woman's menstrual cycle?

You could be addressing a woman whose first experience with her menstrual cycle were emotionally, physically, and psychologically painful. Did anyone prepare her for the changes she experienced? Did anyone help her when she experienced it? Did anyone tell her that she was becoming a woman and her body was making itself ready to bear a child? Did someone tell her she was dirty and did she feel dirty? Did her brother or father mock her? Did she feel that the whole family were talking behind her back about the intimate workings of her own body? Did anyone tell her it could hurt and what to do about it?

You could be addressing a woman who felt embarrassed by her menstrual cycle. Maybe she started bleeding one day in class and other students noticed it before she did. Was she ridiculed? Gossiped about? Did she know peers were talking about her as if she were the news of the day? Is she what the kids were laughing about in the back of the bus on the trip home? Maybe she started bleeding on high school graduation day and everyone saw the blood stain on her white graduation gown. Maybe a friend came to her aid to help clean it up in front of a gender mixed room of her peers. What might that have felt like and what might it have taken for her to process the experience and confidently walk out with her class...or did she?

You could be talking to a woman who has dealt with the physical pain of ovarian cysts (or any other number of conditions) or the mother of a teenager she has supported through the ordeal of ovarian cysts the pain of which flares with each period. You could be talking to the teen suffering from ovarian cysts who has had to begin taking oral contraceptives to relieve it. Did her friends know she was on the pill? Did they call her a slut and did she believe them? Did any of the boys try to approach her sexually or sexually assault her because they believed she was a girl who would "put out"?

You could be addressing an ovarian cancer survivor and in that case, demeaning a warrior who fought for her life and either won or was nearing the end of her life? Or her mother fought and was nearing the end of her life. Or her daughter or sister or friend were nearing the end of their lives. You could be talking to a woman who followed her friend into hospice and sat by her side while she withered away and died from ovarian cancer caught far too late.

You could be speaking to a woman who went through the commitment and expense involved in infertility treatments to bring a child into the world and into her life and managed to succeed or fail. How did she deal with success or failure? Did her husband resent the expense and hold it against her for the rest of their marriage? Did the marriage survive it?

You could be a woman who had gone through a sperm bank to achieve pregnancy and bring a child into her life, not because the functioning of her ovaries was at issue, but her husband's infertility. What kind of weight might she be carrying with regard to her husband's attitude, his acceptance or resentment in her doing so? What kind of weight might she be carrying with regard to whether or not to inform the child that she is carrying one day? When and how to inform? What might that do to the relationship between child and father, assuming the husband was still present in the relationship.

You could be speaking to a woman whose life experiences and challenges regarding her menstrual cycle throughout her life course, didn't weaken her but rather made her adaptable, confident, and psychologically strong, and who feels duly insulted because she knows who she is and how she got there.

Q: Have you ever asked a woman in your life to tell you her stories? If so, did you listen and did you watch her voice and facial expressions change as she told you and could you feel her feelings? If not, would you be willing to do that and will you do that?

Every woman has a story. Some of my own stories are woven into the text of the above post.

At the very least, do you see some of the reasons why a woman might react strongly to such remarks even when they are used as a rhetorical device as part of the game to question a woman's ability to think? How might your reaction differ considering all of the above?

[Res Ipsa]

Yes, I have. And yes I did. Listening to women tell their stories is what led to my current thinking about sexism.

The stories are powerful, but I can’t tell them. They aren’t my stories, Given the long history of men speaking for women, it would be disrespectful for me to do so. So, thank you for speaking up.

It doesn’t change my perspective on the sexist comment or the reaction to it, I’m not subjected to the sexist BS, so I don’t feel it’s appropriate for me to judge a woman’s response to it. But it was valuable as a reminder of why taking action against sexism is important. I always appreciate that.

[Jersey Girl]

Yes, I have. And yes I did. Listening to women tell their stories is what led to my current thinking about sexism.

The stories are powerful, but I can’t tell them. They aren’t my stories, Given the long history of men speaking for women, it would be disrespectful for me to do so. So, thank you for speaking up.

It doesn’t change my perspective on the sexist comment or the reaction to it, I’m not subjected to the sexist BS, so I don’t feel it’s appropriate for me to judge a woman’s response to it. But it was valuable as a reminder of why taking action against sexism is important. I always appreciate that.

I think that if we're going to talk or think about how to stop sexist speech and behavior (as you re-titled your thread), we should try first to identify what it is, why it exists, what function it serves, try to understand why it's objectionable, how to stop it and how eliminating it (we'll never do that of course) might better serve society.

[Res Ipsa]

Yes, I have. And yes I did. Listening to women tell their stories is what led to my current thinking about sexism.

The stories are powerful, but I can’t tell them. They aren’t my stories, Given the long history of men speaking for women, it would be disrespectful for me to do so. So, thank you for speaking up.

It doesn’t change my perspective on the sexist comment or the reaction to it, I’m not subjected to the sexist B.S., so I don’t feel it’s appropriate for me to judge a woman’s response to it. But it was valuable as a reminder of why taking action against sexism is important. I always appreciate that.

I think that if we're going to talk or think about how to stop sexist speech and behavior (as you re-titled your thread), we should try first to identify what it is, why it exists, what function it serves, try to understand why it's objectionable, how to stop it and how eliminating it (we'll never do that of course) might better serve society.

Absolutely. That is what I’d hoped to discuss with Moksha, and I’m sorry that we never got there. I’ll admit to being frustrated because I feel like these issues have been talked to death, and It’s long past time to act. But if you think talking through these issues will help men get on board, I’m all for it.

[Jersey Girl]

I think that if we're going to talk or think about how to stop sexist speech and behavior (as you re-titled your thread), we should try first to identify what it is, why it exists, what function it serves, try to understand why it's objectionable, how to stop it and how eliminating it (we'll never do that of course) might better serve society.

Absolutely. That is what I’d hoped to discuss with Moksha, and I’m sorry that we never got there. I’ll admit to being frustrated because I feel like these issues have been talked to death, and It’s long past time to act. But if you think talking through these issues will help men get on board, I’m all for it.

I'm just offering it as food for thought for those who don't gag at the thought of thinking about it.

As for your hopes for Moksha. It's like I said in an earlier post (though I'm going to amend it slightly now) you can't force a person to examine their own thinking or the thinking of others in an effort to understand why they get the reactions they do, who stubbornly refuses to do so.

[asbestosman]

Q: What statement can be made by a female to a male that carries the same inequitable punch that is intended to demean?

Make a list.

The list:

• ∅

The above list is comprehensive.


While there are times an individual woman might make a statement to a male individual which carries the same inequitable punch that is intended to demean, said punch won't rely on his maleness if it will reach the level of sexist punches from men to women. Instead such an inequitable punch from a woman to a man will be because the man is part of some disadvantaged group based on things like race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

Misandry is not the negative equivalent of sexism because men maintain a disproportionate share of societal power.

[Res Ipsa]

Hey, Honor, I have a question about something you said on Lem’s thread. You talked about others “enabling” certain behavior. I’m curious as to why you are holding other adults responsible for another adult’s posting behavior? If you’d care to discuss your thoughts on this, I’d be interested. I think the general subject of men’s reactions to women’s speech is on topic, while attacking a woman’s speech is not.

[Lem]

Hey, Honor, I have a question about something you said on Lem’s thread. You talked about others “enabling” certain behavior. I’m curious as to why you are holding other adults responsible for another adult’s posting behavior? If you’d care to discuss your thoughts on this, I’d be interested. I think the general subject of men’s reactions to women’s speech is on topic, while attacking a woman’s speech is not.

Honor's recent post didn't refer to others 'enabling' behavior, it assumed that the author of the OP was "enabled by whatever is going on."

Given your request that "attacking a woman's speech is not" on topic, honorentheos's assumptions about how a 'woman's speech' is "enabled by whatever is going on" would seem to be off-topic, especially since he has made multiple posts attacking women's speech, using that as a context in several of them. I am hoping that you simply read that wrong, and didn't assume that "enabled by whatever is going on" had any resemblance to "the general subject of men’s reactions to women’s speech," a phrase you noted in your post as being an acceptable topic, "while attacking a women's speech is not."