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Somewhere not long ago in my online travels I came upon this channel where a grandson shares videos of his interactions and adventures with his 95 year old grandma. I haven't seen all of their videos by any means, but this one came up today and it resonated with me. What she says about organized religion and churches, the reason she stopped going to church, her philosophies regarding prayer for others and judging others for their beliefs or for things like sexual orientation, and particularly how she says she feels closer to God outside of a church where there is no human leadership involved...she is right in line with what I have come to believe over the years.

The two differences between her and I are our ages, and that I don't keep pictures of Jesus or angels or figures of angels in my home. I have no particular belief against doing that, I just choose to have what I think of as representations of the creation in my home...things from nature and various ecosystems. Because I love to be surrounded by the outdoors even when I am inside my home--it brings me a sense of peace and wholeness probably as much as her representations of Jesus and angels, do her.

Here's the link if you are interested. For me, I'm happy to have heard from someone else who has had a very similar spiritual journey as I have had, and who has reached similar (if not identical) conclusions. I guess it makes me not feel like I am so freakishly "out there" by some folks standards. I have to add here that last night I was thinking/praying about whether or not I should be in a church, and my inner conflict re: how I think so many churches (like everything else in this world) have been corrupted by the human touch, that I don't think I have any interest at all in trying to find a new church. So this little video was a timely event for me. Kind of a bit of reinforcement if that makes sense.

“Are Christians better than Muslims, Hindus or Jews?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfmtoF211TI

p.s. If you like her,lemme tell you....she's very sweet, opinionated, and has a ton of sass in her! Delightful to watch!

I have dealt with very similar feelings. Organized religion never felt right to me, and I always felt out of place when I was in a Church worshipping. My relationship with the divine has increased over the years the farther I get from sitting in that carpet walled LDS chapel. Love the video, thanks for sharing!

Kukulkan wrote: ↑

Wed May 12, 2021 12:54 am

I have dealt with very similar feelings. Organized religion never felt right to me, and I always felt out of place when I was in a Church worshipping. My relationship with the divine has increased over the years the farther I get from sitting in that carpet walled LDS chapel. Love the video, thanks for sharing!

My three strikes in my former Baptist church (which I loved until the church got bigger congregation-wise were as follows:

1. How they spoke of LDS to the youth. (Long story. More than one incidence. Yes, I actively protested.)
2. A building fundraising campaign (very pushy)
3. How they treated a volunteer (whom I assisted) who delivered a children's ministry upon her leaving due to a cross country move. Then assumed the very next week that I would take over the ministry without ever asking me. Called me at home and asked where I was.

Do you know of other people who have adopted the same philosophies? I'm sure there has got to be many.

Jersey Girl wrote: ↑

Wed May 12, 2021 1:12 am

My three strikes in my former Baptist church (which I loved until the church got bigger congregation-wise were as follows:

1. How they spoke of LDS to the youth. (Long story. More than one incidence. Yes, I actively protested.)
2. A building fundraising campaign (very pushy)
3. How they treated a volunteer (whom I assisted) who delivered a children's ministry upon her leaving due to a cross country move. Then assumed the very next week that I would take over the ministry without ever asking me. Called me at home and asked where I was.

Do you know of other people who have adopted the same philosophies? I'm sure there has got to be many.

Interestingly enough your first reason was one of mine! The way my leaders and teachers spoke about other religions was a huge turn off and incredibly un-Christlike. There was a lot of belief gatekeeping and looking down going on. I am curious, are you from the south? Being from the south, I am quite familiar with Baptists and Baptist churches are as common as LDS are in Utah.

My brother actually feels the same way, which I had no idea until I was able to sit down with him one time and talk religion and belief. It was a very comforting and validating experience.

Kukulkan wrote: ↑

Wed May 12, 2021 1:18 am

Jersey Girl wrote: ↑

Wed May 12, 2021 1:12 am

My three strikes in my former Baptist church (which I loved until the church got bigger congregation-wise were as follows:

1. How they spoke of LDS to the youth. (Long story. More than one incidence. Yes, I actively protested.)
2. A building fundraising campaign (very pushy)
3. How they treated a volunteer (whom I assisted) who delivered a children's ministry upon her leaving due to a cross country move. Then assumed the very next week that I would take over the ministry without ever asking me. Called me at home and asked where I was.

Do you know of other people who have adopted the same philosophies? I'm sure there has got to be many.

Interestingly enough your first reason was one of mine! The way my leaders and teachers spoke about other religions was a huge turn off and incredibly un-Christlike. There was a lot of belief gatekeeping and looking down going on. I am curious, are you from the south? Being from the south, I am quite familiar with Baptists and Baptist churches are as common as LDS are in Utah.

My brother actually feels the same way, which I had no idea until I was able to sit down with him one time and talk religion and belief. It was a very comforting and validating experience.

No. I am a Jersey Girl who was a member of a Southern Baptist Church in Colorado.

Jersey Girl wrote: ↑

Wed May 12, 2021 1:28 am

No. I am a Jersey Girl who was a member of a Southern Baptist Church in Colorado.

Considering your username I feel stupid.

Kukulkan wrote: ↑

Wed May 12, 2021 1:32 am

Jersey Girl wrote: ↑

Wed May 12, 2021 1:28 am

No. I am a Jersey Girl who was a member of a Southern Baptist Church in Colorado.

Considering your username I feel stupid.

You talkin' to me?

I noticed you mentioned earlier that you felt your church experience deteriorated in quality the larger your congregation got. I found the same in the LDS church. I moved a lot so I was never in a congregation for more than 4-5 years. Through the many congregations I attended I noticed the smaller ones felt more homey and welcoming and less judgmental of outsiders. In the LDS church we have a saying about the 'letter' of the law vs the 'spirit' of the law, meaning adherence to strict rules vs doing your best to live those rules while not being scrupulous. The larger they got no matter where I was it seemed the 'organized' part that I hated about religion seemed to shine through more. It really makes me wonder what causes that. Perhaps the more people in a congregation the more leaders feels they need to enforce rules and 'protect' their congregation? It obviously transcends different religious organizations considering we both experienced it in completely difference religions.

Baptists seem to vary based on which convention they affiliate with, although it is not as entirely simple as American Baptists good, Southern Baptists bad.

Kukulkan wrote: ↑

Wed May 12, 2021 2:02 am

I noticed you mentioned earlier that you felt your church experience deteriorated in quality the larger your congregation got. I found the same in the LDS church. I moved a lot so I was never in a congregation for more than 4-5 years. Through the many congregations I attended I noticed the smaller ones felt more homey and welcoming and less judgmental of outsiders. In the LDS church we have a saying about the 'letter' of the law vs the 'spirit' of the law, meaning adherence to strict rules vs doing your best to live those rules while not being scrupulous. The larger they got no matter where I was it seemed the 'organized' part that I hated about religion seemed to shine through more. It really makes me wonder what causes that. Perhaps the more people in a congregation the more leaders feels they need to enforce rules and 'protect' their congregation? It obviously transcends different religious organizations considering we both experienced it in completely difference religions.

I think it has something to do with the larger the church, the more impersonal it gets to be or the more diluted or complicated the ability to form relationships gets to be. (Nice sentence, Jersey Girl. ) Also, the larger the church, the more need for organizational controls, expanded infrastructure, people to head up growing ministries, etc. That and the fact that when some folks get their first sniff of perceived power and authority, they can get weird and arrogant, wanting to throw their perceived weight around before they've even gotten their feet wet in a position. Why is there not team and communications training for lay persons? Don't get me started.

That thing about the building fund. It started off just fine, people were excited that we were growing, and then it got crazy. That summer, two people who I didn't even know (again the impersonal relationships piece) showed up at my house with no appointment (I detest door knockers and this was my own church doing it) while I was shampooing carpets (house is a wreck, carpeting is soggy, I am a wreck--get out of my face!) and when I invited them in to talk they said they were looking to increase donations for the building fund. I told them that I had already contributed and that I was a teacher and didn't get paid during summer (and if they knew me they'd already know that but--bigger church), then they asked me if my husband could donate. Listen. My husband was not a member of the church and there was no way I was going to hit him up for building funds. My level of trust flew right out the window that day. Strangers in my house asking for money for "our" church. What?

Anyway, it's kind of like in the LDS church when the Ward is outgrowing the building and you split off into groups (tracks?) for Sunday, then it's essentially 2 Wards under one roof and so on, and so forth. It might be hard to continue friendships with people you like and trust because some of your friends are split off on another track.

My former church, the new building looks fantastic. I've been in it once and flipping hated it. I also hated the Christmas service they did. I much prefer the smaller church where people build relationships over time, come to trust and know each other, and therefore don't mind sharing when they are in need so others can help them. In a larger church, I think you lose that intimacy. I don't know how to achieve fellowship without that kind of intimacy, that knowing and trusting each other. Aren't we supposed to connect with each other? The whole Mega Church thing goes against my grain, not that my old church is Mega but I would say Mc Mega at least.

I am sure that each of us has our own ideas about what a church should be. My idea of what a church should be is just what I described in the above paragraph and not only that, I think the outreach should be directly to the community that one lives in and I don't mean witnessing, I mean service to others and not just church members. I don't know...I'm not good at or interested in a whole lot of things. Service to others is the absolute top of my list and since I left my church I think I've been able to concentrate on or find more opportunities to respond to human needs than I ever had in church.

I swear I could write a book on this. I'll spare you the rough draft!

And then there is the nature piece for me. I never feel more spiritually connected to God than when I am in the out of doors, in nature. And where I live I can have that every day (no human sounds) of my life. Nature is a transcendent experience for me. Isn't that what God believers strive for and benefit from?

Again. The book.