On audits, elections and public trust

[Mayan Elephant]

It is speculation only whether it means nothing/everything to Trump. It is speculation and generalization to say that it means nothing/everything to his broader base.

Very true. You're not going to like this, but

You are wrong. Very wrong. There is nothing that you said that I dislike. Nothing. I may arrive at a different conclusion or make a different decision than you. But, I like what you said. I respect it, a lot.

Trump is a very flawed character in a very flawed system. Despite all the noise you hear and tolerate from the clowns on this board, I would like things to be better. I do not weigh the the issues with a media/campaign cabal any heavier than the other media/campaign cabal. I also do not give a pass to the characters in chief we have now because a character in chief we had then should have done better.

Gadianton, I can only take so much. I appreciate your time and thoughts. I respect it a lot. Looks like the point we came to make has been settled once and for all. You have been one hell of a gentleman, as I always remembered you were. Let's catch up on this topic without circus and get an NA beer someday, if you tribe will allow it.

This is no place for an honest man. This is a place for fights and fault lines.

[Mayan Elephant]

ME,

You are a Trumper through and through. Pivots. Obfuscates. Lies. Insults. Asserts.

But never any proof. Never any intention of backing up a claim.

WHAT. KIND. OF. AUDIT. IS. A. COMPLETE. AUDIT???

- Doc

i reject your terms, and have been this whole time. pay attention.

you won. have fun out there alone.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Coward.

WHAT. KIND. OF. AUDIT. IS. A. COMPLETE. AUDIT???

- Doc

[Chap]

Trump is a very flawed character in a very flawed system.

Hmm. I would say that whatever the flaws might have been in 'the system' when he started, Trump had made it a whole lot worse by the time he left - including provoking a violent attack on Congress that resulted in several fatalities, and might have led to quite a few more.

Plus of course cultivating radical mistrust in an election system that people in some other countries would, despite its imperfections, be willing to kill to get for their own country.

[Gunnar]

Coward.

WHAT. KIND. OF. AUDIT. IS. A. COMPLETE. AUDIT???

- Doc

Obviously one that meets both ME's criteria and expectations.

What I do agree with ME about, though, is the honorability and honesty of both Gadianton and Honorentheos. There are few, if any, contributors to this forum that I esteem as highly as those two gentlemen. Their diplomacy and patience in responding to ME is awesome!

Another thing I can say in ME's favor is that at least he has come to the wise conclusion that he would never vote for Trump again, whether he came to that conclusion before or because of this discussion (I expect, probably before).

One of the many good points that Gadianton made is that it is probably true that fewer Republicans actually believe the lie that the election was stolen than actually claim to believe it, or really care whether it is a lie. More likely is that they wish they could somehow reinstate Trump as President by any means necessary, no matter what the vast majority of their fellow Americans voted for. Why they would still want that is a complete mystery to me!

It seems to me that one of ME's arguments is basically that absence of evidence of fraud in the election is not evidence of absence. I have always found that an unsatisfactory argument motivated more by desperation to believe than anything else. I have always found that argument akin to "guilty unless proven innocent." The more appropriate standard, especially in a just democracy, ought to be "innocent unless proven guilty." The longer and harder one has to look for evidence of something without finding it, the more the absence of that evidence does indeed become evidence of absence.

[Gunnar]

Trump is a very flawed character in a very flawed system.

Hmm. I would say that whatever the flaws might have been in 'the system' when he started, Trump had made it a whole lot worse by the time he left - including provoking a violent attack on Congress that resulted in several fatalities, and might have led to quite a few more.

Plus of course cultivating radical mistrust in an election system that people in some other countries would, despite its imperfections, be willing to kill to get for their own country.

Thanks, Chap! You are one of the few I esteem on approximately same level as Gadianton and Honorentheos.

[jpatterson]

This is no place for an honest man. This is a place for fights and fault lines.

I can't help but laugh at the irony of this coming from someone who voted for Trump. Hilarious.

[Gunnar]

This is no place for an honest man. This is a place for fights and fault lines.

I can't help but laugh at the irony of this coming from someone who voted for Trump. Hilarious.

Well, at least he seems to have repented of that. He now maintains that he would never vote for him again.

[jpatterson]

Well, at least he seems to have repented of that. He now maintains that he would never vote for him again.

Irrelevant. Him voting for Trump even one time tells us enough about what he values and what he thinks about the importance of truth and the role of fights and fault lines.

[Gunnar]

Well, at least he seems to have repented of that. He now maintains that he would never vote for him again.

Irrelevant. Him voting for Trump even one time tells us enough about what he values and what he thinks about the importance of truth and the role of fights and fault lines.

I have to admit I find it hard to argue with that.