What Does America Stand For?

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Some Schmo
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Re: What Does America Stand For?

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honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:46 pm
Opportunity is what it stands for. It's what's brought people here for centuries, and what has driven the so-called American dream.
I'm sure slave owners brought people here with dreams of the opportunity slave ownership would bring them.

Kind of sucked for the slaves though. I don't think they viewed it as an opportunity.
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Re: What Does America Stand For?

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There are also those who see the gap between reality and the ideal and decide, “F” it there's nothing to be done, let's burn the world down. Those people are damned assholes.
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Re: What Does America Stand For?

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honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:36 pm
There are also those who see the gap between reality and the ideal and decide, “F” it there's nothing to be done, let's burn the world down. Those people are damned assholes.
Um... ok. Not sure what that has to do with the thread, but yeah, I suppose.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: What Does America Stand For?

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Some Schmo wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:46 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:36 pm
There are also those who see the gap between reality and the ideal and decide, “F” it there's nothing to be done, let's burn the world down. Those people are damned assholes.
Um... ok. Not sure what that has to do with the thread, but yeah, I suppose.
It seems you’re overly attached to the notion that POC can’t get a fair shake due to systemic realities, namely the trans-Atlantic slave trade. However,if you look at the Hart-Cellar Act of 1965, and the subsequent dozen or so immigration and naturalization acts passed since then the Browning of America has pushed ‘whitness’ down from, I dunno, 85% back in the 80’s to ~56% now (numbers jump around a bit depending on the source you use). Tens of millions of non-Western European immigrants have come to America, and continue to do so, because our Ben and Jerry’s Poo Tracks ice cream is much more preferable to their countries’ Pints of Poo. Hispanic immigration is bananas, as is Asian (Near, Far, Middle, and Southeast), African, and everything in between. That’s a whole lotta people who view this country, rightly, as a land of opportunity because their own lands offer little chance for them or their 2nd and 3rd gen descendants upward mobility.

I still maintain if we were to go open borders we’d have a billion people here within 10-20 years. That’s what Honor is getting at. People believe in America, even if ‘native born’ Americans ha e become jaded and cynical.

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Some Schmo
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Re: What Does America Stand For?

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:07 pm
It seems you’re overly attached to the notion that POC can’t get a fair shake due to systemic realities, namely the trans-Atlantic slave trade.
I'm not just talking about POC (although they are excellent example of demographics that start out hampered by the system). All you need to do is be born to poor, uneducated white folks and you're beginning the sprint from miles behind.
I still maintain if we were to go open borders we’d have a billion people here within 10-20 years. That’s what Honor is getting at. People believe in America, even if ‘native born’ Americans ha e become jaded and cynical.
Maybe, but I suspect that has more to do with the way America markets itself globally than anything else. The sense you get from the outside is much different from the reality of living here.

Perhaps that's what America stands for: marketing/branding. America is better than anyone else at that stuff, hands down. They are in constant advertising mode, so they've had a ton of practice.
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Re: What Does America Stand For?

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Perhaps, but this is where we kind of get into staring into the abyss. It stares back at you, no? Projection and all that.

So. I’m watching Loki, episode 1, for the third time because it’s well done. It’s an incredible story with excellent production value. That kind of art and creativity was produced in America, and was even shot in Georgia, that bastion of hateful white racism (!). Black people, mulattos, a British, whites, a Filipino, and a few other variants make up a diverse cast. Anything we assign to this production will almost certainly be a reflection of who we are as an individual. One could argue that only a privileged few could ever hope to make it into a Marvel production. Another person might laud its racial and gender diversity. Another might declare the platform its hosted on is gatekeeping art from the proletariat because it charges money for access to its content. And they all could declare this indicative of America, what it is, its ethos.

So, the real question, and thus the real subject of this thread is why did you start this thread? What was the impetus?

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Re: What Does America Stand For?

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:12 pm
So, the real question, and thus the real subject of this thread is why did you start this thread? What was the impetus?
As an Americanophile (whatever that means nowadays) outsider, I'd like to ask -

What decision of real life importance hinges on getting the right answer to the question in the thread title?

(NB: That question is not an attempt to rubbish the OP question, but simply attempts to find some meaningful way to set about answering it,)
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: What Does America Stand For?

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One addendum-thought, I just saw this guy while my wife and I were taking a break from a backyard project, which, oddly enough involves a trailer the same size as this one:

Image

And I couldn’t help but think how someone would view the man laboring away inside as a hopeful opportunist looking to parlay his humble enterprise into a restaurant one day, or a victim of a racist and capitalist system (often described as one and the same) who suffers to serve elitists in their cars. I tend to believe, based on a handful of conversations I’ve had with street food vendors, the man who’s working inside his restaurant-trailer understands he’s disadvantaged, but also believes he can do better for himself here than wherever he came from.

So, what does America stand for within this context? I dunno. I tend to default to Honor’s opinion, I guess.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: What Does America Stand For?

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:45 pm
America is compromise.
Unfortunately, a growing number of Americans are adopting the attitude that compromise = lose, along with ‘winning is everything’.
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Re: What Does America Stand For?

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Some Schmo wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:36 pm
Maybe, but I suspect that has more to do with the way America markets itself globally than anything else. The sense you get from the outside is much different from the reality of living here.
Perhaps it plays a role, but most likely a small one. The America's, North and South were a huge draw for centuries from Europe and elsewhere because it was open territory which had a lot of opportunity. The US and Canada may have done better since over time they provided better stability and freedom, which is important for opportunity. The size of the US gave it much better, as you saying, marketing. While no area has ever provided equal opportunity for all, The US provided better than most for a long time. The one thing we have lost in opportunity in the America's is cheap or free land.

Western Europe has been a major place of immigrant movement to North America for centuries until about the mid 1900's when it dried up. Not because North America is no longer a good place for opportunity, but because western Europe is now just as good and in some places better. Same for a number of countries like Japan. While freedom and stability are very important to opportunity, I think in today's world, the ability to get education without means is very important to opportunity. The US is still better than average here, but no where near the top anymore. One of the things that has had important influence economically is societies that ensured even poor kids get educated.
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