Radio Free Mormon: Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck

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Re: Radio Free Mormon: Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck

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Shulem » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:29 pm
FAIRMORMON wrote:Question: Was Joseph Smith commanded by the Lord to go to Salem, Massachusetts to hunt for treasure in the cellar of a house?

Answer: The trip was apparently made on their own initiative, and was not commanded by the Lord.

FAIRMormon (Victory for Satan) has no right to say Joseph Smith didn't receive a direct commandment to go to Salem in effort to soften the blow. There is no record in which Smith states he was NOT commanded and was simply doing it on his own whim or accord. Absence of evidence is not evidence! It's hypocritical of FAIRMORMON to use this tactic. FAIRMORMON simply cannot say that Smith was not commanded by God to go to Salem. They can only say that they know of no account or statement in which God commanded him to go to Salem and have no choice but to leave the question open ended. Obviously, Smith was dreaming about treasure and seeing he was a prayerful man and always getting revelations and commandments it's reasonable to think he got one to go to Salem. But who knows? Obviously he was told by God that there were treasures to be found so he ran with it.
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Re: Radio Free Mormon: Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck

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Shulem » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:41 pm
FAIRMORMON wrote:Joseph did not "prophesy" that they would find money in Salem, but instead made the trip because he became convinced that the story that the treasure existed might true. Upon failing to locate the money, they spent their time preaching to the people in Salem.

You don't know that he did NOT prophesy. You were not there. Absence of evidence is not evidence to make such a statement. For all you know, Smith prophesied several time to several people that they would find money in Salem but it simply was not written or recorded for the record.

Smith was convinced there was money. But he failed to find it. He failed to do a lot of things. He failed to build the temple in Jackson county even though he was commanded by God to build it and had a vision of building up Zion in the Center Place. But as we saw, Zion was not built and neither did he find "treasure" in Salem. Commandment or no commandment; He failed.
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Re: Radio Free Mormon: Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck

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Shulem » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:46 pm
FAIRMORMON wrote:The revelation (D&C 111) itself indicates that the Lord did not command the prophet to go to Salem to obtain money

The revelation was Joseph Smith backpedaling and covering his ass for God only knows what he said to Emma, his friends, and all those involved in the treasure hunt.

You weren't there, FAIRMORMON! Smith was apt to make all kinds of wild claims about all kinds of wild things. *That* was his nature.
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Re: Radio Free Mormon: Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck

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Shulem » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:56 pm
FAIRMORMON wrote:The trip to Salem was apparently ‘a venture of their own design, not one of divine direction’

So, here we have the prophet and his closest associates traveling about for weeks without divine direction. How hardly does that fit with Smith's schedule. The man claimed revelations left and right. But now FAIRMORMON wants us to think Smith blindly left Kirtland seeking for treasures and all this without the direction of the Lord or a single drop of the Holy Spirit ® to tell him to cease from his "follies".

Riiiiiiight.

:lol:

FAIRMORMON -- you're stupid!
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Re: Radio Free Mormon: Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck

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Shulem » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:43 pm

Very interesting. It appears that the Four Amigos may have had some differences once they got to Salem. Like, perhaps, where the hell are the treasures, Joe? Thanks to BYU professor Alexander L. Baugh, I've surmised that the Four Amigos were not a united front when they arrived in Salem to hunt for treasure.

A Historical Note on Joseph Smith’s 1836 Visit to the East India Marine Society Museum in Salem, Massachusetts

Joseph Smith
Hyrum Smith
Oliver Cowdery
Sidney Rigdon

They arrived in Salem on Thursday August 4th, 1836. Two days later, on Saturday the 6th, Joseph Smith received the revelation of D&C 111. But what were the Amigos doing during Smith's revelation about his "follies" in looking for treasure? It appears, according to the guest register of the East India Marina Society museum that two of the Amigos (Oliver & Sidney) went out to do some sightseeing. But Joseph & Hyrum are not on the register. Why? The brethren split up! Discord, perhaps? Sounds like Joseph was having to come up with some answers fast because there were obviously divisions among them.

Lo, two days later, on Tuesday August 9th 1836 Joseph Smith visited the above museum all by himself. His is the only name (of the Four Amigos) on the guest register! Not even Hyrum's name is on the register. It seems to me that the brethren were divided and there were probably some hard feelings along with discussion of treasure and revelations.

Or not.
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Re: Radio Free Mormon: Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck

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Shulem » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:24 pm

One of Joe's main partners in crime was Cowdery. During his visit to the eastern seaboard he maintained correspondence with the LATTER DAY SAINT'S MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE in which he was the editor. An interesting clip he included in the October 1836 edition about his trip to Salem is:
Oliver Cowdery wrote:Salem is a pleasantly situated town, with fifteen thousand inhabitants; its streets, though narrow, are remarkably still, and the people very civil. In fact, I may say in truth, that I never visited a place of its size where so little bustle and noise were to be seen and heard. The inhabitants as I learned are generally wealthy and the almost entire business of the place is commercial. Marblehead, Beverly & Danvers, in the immediate vicinity, and in sight, are said to contain as many more inhabitants. Between Boston and Salem, say eight miles from the former, is Lynn, an industrious manufacturing town, fast increasing in wealth and population.
Now, with that said, how does the so-called revelation of D&C 111 find fulfillment in light of what Cowdery thought of Salem and what Smith said was going to happen:
D&C 111:4 wrote:And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.

Really? When did that ever happen? When did Joseph Smith assume power or control in Salem insomuch as he'd have power over the city? What "secret parts" is Joseph Smith hiding? What's up his sleeve? When did Smith and the Mormons obtain the wealth of Salem to include GOLD and SILVER?

This prophecy is utterly false. Joe was wrong. He was a fool and his "follies" were made manifest.
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Re: Radio Free Mormon: Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck

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Shulem » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:43 pm

SHULEM: Mr. Smith, do you really think you and your brother are going to find treasure in Salem?

SMITH:
I've been informed by a most reliable source that treasures have been hid up and lost in this most peculiar of cities.

SHULEM: Indeed, there may be. Have you prayed and made supplication to God that you might be led to buried treasure so that your church may profit therefrom?

SMITH: Verily, not a day goes by without making supplication and seeking direct guidance from God in all things who even today is pouring out his Spirit upon me.

SHULEM: Well, sir, I wish you all the best in finding treasure in Salem.

SMITH: Your kind gesture is much appreciated. I testify that the hand of providence is upon Zion and the Almighty is pouring out his Spirit upon me as I am even now ready to travel east to answer the call. Good day to you, Shulem, and God's speed.
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Re: Radio Free Mormon: Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck

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Shulem » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:12 pm

JOSEPH: Brother Hyrum, hold yourself, let us not embark as yet, there is someone over there I don't care to greet. Let us hold our peace here for just a while longer.

HYRUM: No trouble, brother, what are a few more minutes to add to our long trip from Salem to Kirtland. We are here now, let us refresh ourselves.

JOSEPH: My heart remains heavy that we return back empty having found no treasure. Now I must face Emma and the brethren who are expecting to hear nothing more than success on our part.

HYRUM: Be not troubled, brother. We did our level best. Might I ask, who is that person over there you care not to meet?

JOSEPH: Oh please, brother, I cannot bear to have to face that dreadful man Shulem again. He gives me every reason to pause and I can tell he questions my every motive and intent.
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Re: Radio Free Mormon: Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck

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consiglieri » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:15 pm wrote:
Hi, Shulem.

Just want you to know I am loving how much enjoyment you are getting out of this little story.

It really is the gift that keeps on giving, isn't it?

By the way, this is the prophecy Daniel Peterson agreed did not come to pass.

It was a couple of years ago I was listening to a FAIR or NAMIR type radio show, and Daniel Peterson was on it.

A caller asked about the Salem prophecy and whether it came to pass.

Daniel Peterson immediately said, "No."

Just, "No."

No follow-up. No exploration as to what that means for other prophecies Joseph Smith claimed or doctrine he restored.

Just, "No."

I have little faith in my ability to locate this audio after so long, but maybe, just maybe, somebody else knows what I am talking about and can locate it . . . ?
Shulem » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:33 pm wrote:
Yes, this little gift keeps on giving. It's a beauty. Thank you for the lovely reminder.

It suddenly occurred to me that this failed prophecy is not something Daniel Peterson is want to have to revisit. My immediate thoughts are that it may be a sore spot for him. If all he could say was "No" then it is not something he wants to discuss. Perhaps we can pour Salem salt into his wound and rub it in.

:D
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Re: Radio Free Mormon: Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck

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Shulem » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:03 pm

Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual

When Will the City of Salem Be Given to the Saints That They Shall “Have Power over It”?
(Sperry, Compendium, pp. 609–10) wrote:In due time the Almighty will give Salem into ‘your’ hands (vs. 4), that the Elders shall have power over it, insomuch that ‘they,’ probably meaning the people of the city, shall not discover ‘your secret parts’. (Cf. Isa. 3:17, ‘shame.’) Not only that, but also the wealth of the city, its gold and silver, shall be in possession of the brethren. This verse is obviously a prophecy of some future happening, even yet future, and evidently looks forward to a day when the Lord’s Kingdom will be established upon the earth, when towns, cities, and nations will be governed under his direction by brethren holding the Priesthood. When that day comes, the Elders of the Church will govern even Salem without being shamed by the people of the city. Its wealth will also be theirs. The meaning here is that it will be used, not so much for their own personal desires, as for righteous purposes.

There you have it, folks. The part about Smith getting power over the city and acquiring their gold and silver was a prophecy, a prophecy that Daniel C Peterson can't even deny. Was it fulfilled? NO! Joseph Smith lived and died never to obtain power over Salem and the gold and silver of that city forever remained a dream for the rest of his life.

The above apologetic is utterly false. It refuses to read the prophecy for what it is, a prophecy or blessing given specifically to Joseph Smith and the Church during his day. The apologetic is wrestling the prophecy away from Smith and attempting to appropriate it to someone else in Smith's future. But that's not what the prophecy says or entails. The apologists have made their own prophecy in an attempt to excuse the one that failed. But in the end neither prophecy will come to pass. The gold, silver, and power of the city of Salem is never going to fall into the hands of The Church of Salt Lake City.
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