Pearl of Great Price Central Facsimile 1 as a Sacrifice Scene

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Shulem
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The silver bullet

Post by Shulem »

:idea:

Let's cut to the chase (it was late last night) and not worry about when or what year the earth was divided and when exactly the tower of Babel fell in the days of Peleg, although according to the biblical account, it happened sometime during Peleg's long life. I don't want to make mistakes and get sidetracked because as soon as I make one little mistake the apologists will discount everything I say and judge my work completely unreliable. That is one of the tricks apologists like to use. Nonetheless, let's focus strictly on the chronology established by the biblical account and see how it's utterly IMPOSSIBLE (0% plausiblity) that the Egyptian civilization was founded by Ham's progeny. Let's put all the chips on the table right now. Shall we? The Mormons can't justify the Book of Abraham's false narrative unless they deny Egyptology & science for the sake of defending their doomed book of scripture. Let's now account for the string of events recorded in the bible:

1. Noah disembarks from the ark as the grand patriarch of the new world.
2. Shem begat Arphaxad 2 years after the flood.
3. Arphaxad age 35 begat Salah
4. Salah age 30 begat Eber
5. Eber age 34 begat Peleg
6. Peleg age 30 begat Reu
7. Reu age 32 begat Serug
8. Serug age 30 begat Nahor
9. Nahor age 29 begat Terah
10. Terah age 70 begat Abram
11. Abram age 75 begins his journey to Canaan (BofA says age 62)

This accounts for a total of 365 years since the flood.

Abraham is now in Egypt!

But note the following patriarchs were still alive during Abraham's Egyptian sojourn:

Noah (died at age 950)
Reu (died at age 239)
Serug (died at age 230
Tera (died at age 205)
Arphaxad (died at age 438)
Salah (died at age 433)
Shem (died at age 610)
Eber (died at age 464)

Note that this includes Noah and Shem who was the so-called "great high priest" mentioned in D&C 138:41.

That is quite an assembly of patriarchs who were alive and well when Abraham went to Egypt and sat on Pharaoh's throne to teach his court astronomy and God only knows what else? But, it's imperative that it be understood that Abraham's life according to the biblical record and working backward in time would have been in or about the 12th Dynasty. Even John Gee knows this and surely wrestles with the implications of what this suggests. What does it suggest? Well, simply put: The 365 years from the flood to Abraham in Egypt is NOT by any stretch enough time to include:

1. Predynastic Egypt
2. Earlydynastic Egypt
3. Old Kingdom (Great Pyramids)
4. 1st Intermediate Period

Poor pitiful John Gee is left how to put the 4 epochs of Egyptian history into the 365 years allotted by biblical chronology! It can't be done. Science and Egyptology positively confirm beyond a shadow of doubt that that Egypt's Making and the periods mentioned above are far longer than what the Book of Abraham demands in making Ham the father of the Egyptian race! The dynastic periods alone exceed 1,000 years to say nothing of Predynastic Egpypt!!!

Folks, this an open and shut case. It *IS* John Gee's worst nightmare and he knows it!

It's the silver bullet in killing the Book of Abraham.

The Book of Abraham is DEAD. There is nothing the Mormons can do to save it.
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Shulem
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Tough question for John Gee

Post by Shulem »

John Gee wrote: Image

How do I account for the Egyptian periods consisting of Predynastic, Earlydynastic, Old Kingdom, and the 1st Intermediate Period having occurred between the time of Ham's progeny discovering the land of Egypt and Abraham sitting on Pharaoh's throne?

I can't. I have no explanation for that. But I'm sure there are parallels that will help us better understand. Would you like to hear a parallel?

Old MacDonald had a farm
Ee i ee i o
And on his farm he had some cows
Ee i ee i oh
With a moo-moo here
And a moo-moo there
Here a moo, there a moo
Everywhere a moo-moo
Old MacDonald had a farm
Ee i ee i o
Old MacDonald had a farm
Ee i ee i o
And on his farm he had some chicks
Ee i ee i o
With a cluck-cluck here
And a cluck-cluck there
Here a cluck, there a cluck
Everywhere a cluck-cluck
Old MacDonald had a farm
Ee i ee i o
Old MacDonald had a farm
Ee i ee i o
And on his farm he had some pigs
Ee i ee i o
With an oink-oink here
And an oink-oink there
Here an oink, there an oink
Everywhere an oink-oink
Old MacDonald had a farm
Ee i ee i o

:lol:
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Muhlestein doesn't know

Post by Shulem »

Kerry Muhlestein wrote:Image

You're asking me when the Pyramids were built?

We don't know when they were built. We do know that the land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land. Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal.

But when the Pyramids were built? We don't know.

They had to have been built before Abraham visited Egypt, obviously. But when? I can't say. They had to have been built sometime after the flood but we don't know when.
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Mormon Discussions

Post by Shulem »

John Gee wrote:Image

Look, I understand Shulem over at Mormon Discussions is raising some valid questions, and means well, in things we don't entirely understand. But it's important to note that he is not an Egyptologist and hasn't the training or expertise to discuss these things on a professional level.

And no, I don't know the king's name in Facsimile No. 3 or why Anubis doesn't have a snout. But I'm confident that there are parallels to help us better understand the messages of the Facsimile.

Would you like to hear a parallel?

Twinkle, twinkle, little star,
How I wonder what you are!
Up above the world so high,
Like a diamond in the sky.

:lol:
moksha » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:16 pm wrote:This makes me wish that Cassius University would grant you an honorary doctorate in advanced lettering.
Last edited by Shulem on Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Anachronistic ordination of Abraham

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Book of Abraham 1:1 wrote:In the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence;
Yeah, time to split because things weren't going so well with father Terah who had turned to idol worship. Time to pack the bags and head out.

Book of Abraham 1:2 wrote:And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.
Abraham sought the "BLESSINGS OF THE FATHERS" and the right to be ordained to the priesthood and lucky for him he was ordained a High Priest. Mission accomplished!

Book of Abraham 1:3 wrote:It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.
This priesthood was purely patriarchal coming down from the fathers and it was conferred upon Abraham in that prescribed manner.

Book of Abraham 1:4 wrote:I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.
Abraham sought an appointment to be ordained to the patriarchal priesthood of his fathers.

Book of Abraham 1:5 wrote:My fathers, having turned from their righteousness, and from the holy commandments which the Lord their God had given unto them, unto the worshiping of the gods of the heathen, utterly refused to hearken to my voice;
Hold the press! We know that Terah had an idolatry problem and Abraham ran out on him but here Abraham said "MY FATHERS" or in other words that seems to suggest his patriarchal lineage had become corrupt through apostasy! At least Terah went sour but who else does Abraham refer to? Abraham did say "FATHERS" (plural).

Book of Abraham 1:6 wrote:For their hearts were set to do evil, and were wholly turned to the god of Elkenah, and the god of Libnah, and the god of Mahmackrah, and the god of Korash, and the god of Pharaoh, king of Egypt;
Abraham now tells us that his FATHER'S "hearts were set to do evil" and became idol worshippers.

Book of Abraham 1:7 wrote:Therefore they turned their hearts to the sacrifice of the heathen in offering up their children unto these dumb idols, and hearkened not unto my voice, but endeavored to take away my life by the hand of the priest of Elkenah. The priest of Elkenah was also the priest of Pharaoh.
Abraham's concludes that his fathers were wicked. But how can this be? What's wrong with this story? According to the bible the only fathers that had passed away before this time was his grandfather Nahor who died just a few years prior at the age of 148 (Gen 11:25) and Peleg having died a year earlier at age 239 (Gen 11:19). Recall that most of Abraham's patriarchs (fathers) were still alive at the time Abraham sought for the priesthood and received the Urim and Thummim whereby he learned astronomy (chapter 3) prior to going down into Egypt to sit on Pharaoh's throne.

According to biblical chronicles the following fathers in patriarchal order were still alive when Abraham sought the priesthood and condemned his patriarchal line for idol worship:

1. Noah
2. Shem
3. Arphaxad
4. Salah
5. Eber
6. Reu
7. Serug
8. Terah



They're not dead:
Book of Abraham 1:16 wrote:And his voice was unto me: Abraham, Abraham, behold, my name is Jehovah, and I have heard thee, and have come down to deliver thee, and to take thee away from thy father’s house, and from all thy kinsfolk, into a strange land which thou knowest not of;
Terah was an idol worshiper -- we get that, but does that mean all the kinsfolk had turn to idolatry? It seems so. Sounds like a good time to reconnect with Noah and Shem -- the good guys. Where are they hiding out?

Book of Abraham 1:18 wrote:Behold, I will lead thee by my hand, and I will take thee, to put upon thee my name, even the Priesthood of thy father, and my power shall be over thee.
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New Translation vs. Book of Abraham

Post by Shulem »

This is for shizts and giggles:
New Translation of the Bible wrote: Old Testament Revision Manuscript

So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and lot went with him. And Abram was seventy & five years old when he departed out of Haran.
Book of Abraham wrote: Book of Abraham Manuscript

I Abram departed, as the Lord had said unto me, and Lot with me, and I Abram was sixty and two years old, when I departed out of Haran.
Which one did Joseph Smith endorse? They both can't be true. The revision of the Genesis account agrees with the KJV. The Book of Abraham account, although a revelation, its submission to the Church via the Times and Seasons was not yet canonized.

75?
62?

Which is it?
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Re: Pearl of Great Price Central Facsimile 1 as a Sacrifice Scene

Post by Shulem »

HOLD THE PRESS, SHULEM WAS WRONG!

I woke up this morning in a moment of dread when I suddenly remembered that Smith considered Shem and Melchizedek to be one in the same. How could I have forgotten that? So, I had to apologize for some of my earlier remarks in thinking Smith was ignorant and how he failed to keep up with the calculations of biblical chronology. I won't make that mistake or underestimate Smith again!

Actually, this information can be used to my advantage in showing that Smith did believe in the literal existence of the early Patriarchs and that their long lives as listed in the bible -- Shem/Melchizedek having lived for 600 years was no myth in the mind of the prophet. The Mormons are stuck with the literalism of Old Testament myth and the connections this raises with Shem having lived in Abraham's day and, beyond (by 35 years).

Not to get sidetracked on a tangent but I want to confirm Shem and then connect it to Smith's Book of Abraham to show that it can't possibly coincide with modern Egyptology.
Council of Fifty, Minutes wrote:He contrasted the forms of the government of the different nations with that which God design’d to establish as spoken of by the prophet Daniel. He particularly referred to the idea that the dominion of Japheth is extended over the whole earth and showed that it was destined to be transferred into the hands of Shem and his posterity.
Doctrine and Covenants, 1835 LECTURE SECOND. Of Faith. SECTION II wrote:Q. How many noted characters lived from Noah to Abraham?
A. Ten.
Q. What are their names?
A. Shem, Arphaxed, Salah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Terah, and Nahor, Abraham’s brother. -[§ ii. ¶ 52.]-
Q. How many of these were cotemporary with Noah?
A. The whole.
Q. How many with Abraham?
A. Eight.
Q. What are their names?
A. Nahor, Abraham’s brother, Terah, Serug, Reu, Eber, Selah, Arphaxed, and Shem.
And:

Evidence does suggest that Smith did in fact equate Melchizedek with Shem! I forgot about that! As it as turned out it's apparent that some of my own Mormon history has become dim. I certainly stand corrected. It only goes to show that what may appear to be isn't so. I'm going to have to turn from some of my early gloating as I have made a fool of myself. I have really made a mess of what I had grew to assume Smith did not know about the history. He was very much acquainted with the succession of the patriarchs and the chronicles in how they were interrelated.
Times and Seasons Vol. V. No. 23. CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. Dec. 15, 1844 wrote:From this definite account of driving the "nations apart, when the ancient hills did bow," all reflecting minds may judge that man was scattered over the whole face of the earth: And with the superior knowledge of men like Noah, Shem, (who was Melchisedec [Melchizedek]) and Abram, the father of the faithful, three contemporaries, holding the keys of the highest order of the priesthood: connecting the creation, and fall; memorising [memorizing] the righteousness of Enoch; and glorying in the construction of the ark for the salvation of a world; still retaining the model and pattern of that ark, than which a great, ah, we may say, half so great a vessel has never been built since; for another ark, be it remembered, with such a ponderous living freight will never be prepared as a vessel of mercy by command of Jehovah: That was so perfectly built as to brave the fury of the elements a year: and with the image of the tower whose peering top reached the sky in daring magnificence; and with that mighty combination of intellect, when the whole earth was of one language, and the plains of Shinar the capitol,-with all these and thousands of others,-where is the man so self biased for his own age, as to wonder who peopled the ruinous cities of the south, or reared the time defying mounds of the north?
Right. I need to get my facts straight. For that, I apologize. Silly me.

:redface:

:sad:

I got off on a bad tangent.
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Smith's roots of Egypt

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Here is Egypt's beginnings according to Smith's understanding:

Noah & wife
_____|_____


Ham & Egyptus (Zeptah) [1]
___________|____________
Pharaoh (Mizraim) & Egyptus (Kahtoumun) [2]


Ham: Several definitions have been attributed to this Hebrew name including hot, warm, fervent, sun burnt, dark and black. The earliest Egyptians were darker skinned and called the southern land kemet because of the black soil.

Egyptus: This name is from the Greek Aigyptos derived from the name Egypt (land of the Copt) and signifies the Two Lands.

Mizraim: The Hebrews referred to Egypt as Mizraim a name suggesting duality and signifies the two Egypts. The name Mesraim (Misr meaning red soil of the north) according to Josephus refers to the country of Egypt as the Mestre and the people of Egypt as the Mestreans. Similarly, Smith in his Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language, referred to Egypt as Ahmehstrah and the people as Ahmehstrahans.

Pharaoh: A Greek word which is translated as per-aa in Egyptian and signifies the Great House of the king.

_________________________________________
[1] Zeptah was the name of Ham's wife according to the Book of Abraham Manuscripts and signifies that which is forbidden.

[2] Kahtoumun was the name of Ham's daughter according to the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language and is a distinction of royal female lineage or descent, according to ancient traditions.
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Egyptologists Muhlestein & Gee can be reasonable

Post by Shulem »

Innovation, Appropriation, and Reinterpretation in Ancient Egypt wrote:
Edited by Kerry Muhlestein & John Gee, 2012

While it is common to make blanket statements about Egyptian beliefs, characteristics, and tendencies, such characterizations ignore the rich and complex reality that lay behind 3000 years of cultural continuation. Part of the reason Egypt’s culture survived for so long was its ability to adapt, appropriate, reinterpret, and innovate, all within the larger bounds of cultural cohesion, correctness, and decorum.

Surely the beliefs and practices of an Egyptian during the 1st Dynasty were not completely congruent with those of the Twenty-Sixth.

. . . . as Egyptologists, we deal with an enormous expanse of time. It is simply impossible to be a specialist in every era of Egyptian history, nor are any of us able to be intimately familiar with every aspect of Egyptian culture in each phase of its history.

Here we see that Egyptologists Muhlestein & Gee can be reasonable and will title the beginning of ancient dynastic Egypt with the correct chronology established through the science of modern Egyptology which uses various means including astronomical star dating or the Sothic cycle of the heliacal rise of Sirius. These dating points used in conjunction with king's lists are firm and ever fixed! After a long Predynastic epic, the 1st Dynasty was established at about 3,000 BC with the opening stages of the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt through the familiar kingly names of Narmer and Menes.

Isn't that right, Muhlestein? Gee?

The problem for Joseph Smith and his Book of Abraham is it does not harmonize with science and Egyptology. Smith's account uses mythical biblical chronology in order to establish his story of Egypt's Making.

Smith's dating system that relied on biblical myth is at serious odds with Egyptology! This is a problem that Muhlestein and Gee cannot solve and no amount of parallels can change the math. Math is math! This is where the Book of Abraham is fatally flawed and proven false.
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Biblical dates for the Flood and Abraham

Post by Shulem »

Today, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints agrees with established biblical chronology as outlined in the scriptures and confirmed by Joseph Smith's teachings (D&C 77) of how long man has been on the earth.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-pearl-of-great-price-student-manual-2018/the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng wrote:
Who Is Abraham and When Did He
Live?


Adam and Eve and the Fall (approximately 4000 BC), Enoch
(approximately 3000 BC), Noah and the Flood
(approximately 2400 BC
), and the tower of Babel
(approximately 2200 BC) preceded Abraham’s time.
Abraham, who was born in about 2000 BC, was the father of
Isaac and the grandfather of Jacob, whose name was changed
to Israel. (See Bible Dictionary, “Chronology.”)

The Church uses common accepted biblical chronology that the Flood occurred at approximately 2400 BC. The Church also accepts a standard biblical dating of 2000 BC for when Abraham was born.

Plug the MATH into the Book of Abraham:
1:1 wrote:In the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, Abraham (1938 BC), saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence
1:23-26 wrote:The land of Egypt being first discovered (2400 BC) by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;

When this woman (2400 BC) discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh (2400 BC), the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal.

Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

The Book of Abraham established the founding of Egypt in 2400 BC by Ham's progeny. Muhlestein & Gee, please step forward and account for the previous 600 years leading to the time when you affirm that the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt took place!
Muhlestein wrote:
Gee wrote:
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