LDS Church: Sexist?

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Short answer for the direct question of the thread: yes, the church is sexist. So is most of the rest of the world, so it's not like they're alone. The church is very traditional, because it's run by very traditional men who are stuck in the 50's. Once the present generation of leaders die, we'll see changes in the church around several issues, including women's issues. Those who are traditionalists are praying mightily for the leaders to stay alive; those who are progressive can't wait until they all die.

]

The problem is where are those of the next generation. The youngest and most recently called apostle is certianly of the generationg many of us are in and one down from the bulk of the leaders that are in the FP and Twelve. My observations fo this youngest apostle is he is very conservative and traditional. If he stays healthy he most certianly will be President of the Church someday. This may be Pres. Hinckley's biggest impact on the Church. In age the youngest next the him are Holland and Uchdorf. I think both are in their early to mid 60's. Bednar is 53. Above Holland the rest are early 70's on up. And there are a number in their 80's, mid to late 80's and then President Hinckley who is 96.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I proposed that she is projecting her own negativety...


Stop right there Jason, because you've just hit upon the core dynamic that explains probably 90% of the verbiage, rhetoric, head gaming, posturing, pontificating, and let's pretend philosophizing of the bulk of the active anti-Mormon, ex-Mormon literary and Internet world.

The Paradigm has now been defined.

Loran
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Short answer for the direct question of the thread: yes, the church is sexist. So is most of the rest of the world, so it's not like they're alone. The church is very traditional, because it's run by very traditional men who are stuck in the 50's. Once the present generation of leaders die, we'll see changes in the church around several issues, including women's issues. Those who are traditionalists are praying mightily for the leaders to stay alive; those who are progressive can't wait until they all die.

]

The problem is where are those of the next generation. The youngest and most recently called apostle is certianly of the generationg many of us are in and one down from the bulk of the leaders that are in the FP and Twelve. My observations fo this youngest apostle is he is very conservative and traditional. If he stays healthy he most certianly will be President of the Church someday. This may be Pres. Hinckley's biggest impact on the Church. In age the youngest next the him are Holland and Uchdorf. I think both are in their early to mid 60's. Bednar is 53. Above Holland the rest are early 70's on up. And there are a number in their 80's, mid to late 80's and then President Hinckley who is 96.


The next generation of apostles are in their 30's now. They've been raised in a world where its impossible to ignore the changes society has made for women. They cannot escape this influence. It's too pervasive. I doubt the changes will take place in my lifetime. I have hope that it will take place in time for my children, though.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Coggins7 wrote:
I proposed that she is projecting her own negativety...


Stop right there Jason, because you've just hit upon the core dynamic that explains probably 90% of the verbiage, rhetoric, head gaming, posturing, pontificating, and let's pretend philosophizing of the bulk of the active anti-Mormon, ex-Mormon literary and Internet world.

The Paradigm has now been defined.

Loran


Well this is really the case. For me, the concerns I may regarding Church issues are really just my own. How I work with those concerns is up to me. I choose to retain what I find good and beneficial. The other things that are out of my control may bug me some. And at times I run across and active LDS who, through our chatting, I find may have questions and concerns that we may overlap on.

But mostly, as I noted elsewhere, active LDS are quite content and happy.

For those like many here who are disseffected, ok, if something else works for you I will be the first to say go your way and find out about what works in life for you. I do not think the LDS Church has all the answers and certianly does not fit for everyone.

But I do believe, based on my experience here, that many of the most angry dissaffected think that secretly inside the hearts of most LDS there are similar issues.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

The next generation of apostles are in their 30's now. They've been raised in a world where its impossible to ignore the changes society has made for women. They cannot escape this influence. It's too pervasive. I doubt the changes will take place in my lifetime. I have hope that it will take place in time for my children, though.


Gotchya. So NG for you means down one more level. Well I will be in my late 60's 30 years from mow when the thirty somethings start being called.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Short answer for the direct question of the thread: yes, the church is sexist. So is most of the rest of the world, so it's not like they're alone. The church is very traditional, because it's run by very traditional men who are stuck in the 50's. Once the present generation of leaders die, we'll see changes in the church around several issues, including women's issues. Those who are traditionalists are praying mightily for the leaders to stay alive; those who are progressive can't wait until they all die.


Loran:

The short answer to the above is that the above is a product of the standard, politically correct, post sixties, revisionist filtering system through which every question ultimately must pass before being regurgitated onto the idiologically correct silver platter of modern pop politics and served up with all the smarmy, self satisfied certitude the annointed Boomer and post Boomer generation of navel gazing pop philosophers can muster.

I deny unequivocally that the Church is "sexist" (and lets be up front with the fact that "sexism" is an Orwellian term; a form of politicized speech created by the radical feminists in the late sixties to define their own ideolgocal enemies, and has no necessary connection to real world conditions or attitudes when not defined within the Feminist ideological framework. Radical Feminism is a form of cultural Marxism, and hence takes a militant, Manichean stance regarding relations between men and woman and the disparate roles of each within society).

Indeed, LDS doctrine places the feminine and its various aspects, including motherhood, in an exalted position, above, in many statements that could be brought to bear here, the official callings of males holding the Priesthood.

The sheer preposterous nonesense bandied about on this thread is truly depressing. We have people holding to one religion (Leftist feminism) criticising others not a part of that religion for not accepting their own principles, forgetting apparantly that this sword has to edges. The rather large corpus of statements and teachings by church leaders regarding the overarching importance of woman and their unique roles in the Church are carefully stepped over lest we get our feet wet, and a completely artificial view of woman's position in the Church, and in the restored gospel is spun out of whole, if rough PC cloth.

Shame on everyone who has a hand in this romper room rhetoric mongering.

Loran
_Coggins7
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Some selected statements of GBH with my italics...

Post by _Coggins7 »

From the General Women’s Meeting held Saturday evening, 28 September 1985


Some are prone to complain that you are discriminated against. All of us rejoice in the enlargement of opportunities for women. Under the law, there are few opportunities afforded men that are not now also open to women. With this enlargement of opportunity, a few Latter-day Saint women are asking why they are not entitled to hold the priesthood. To that I can say that only the Lord, through revelation, could alter that situation. He has not done so, so it is profitless for us to speculate and worry about it. May I suggest, rather, that you dwell on the remarkable blessings that are yours, the great positive privileges of your lives as women of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the transcendent spiritual gifts that may be yours. I should like to name ten of these, with their coincident responsibilities. I shall have time to comment only briefly on each.

1. You have the gift, the opportunity, and the responsibility of doing good. You possess an instinctive inclination to help those in distress, and you have a peculiar and remarkable way of doing so. There are so many who need your help. There are boys and girls who flounder and drift and waste their lives for want of someone interested in them to counsel and reassure and comfort and direct them.

Nursing homes are filled with the aged and the infirm who cry out for a listening ear and a comforting word. There are so many who are lonely and afraid for whom a little companionship would mean so very, very much. There are the sick and dying who live in pain and fear for whom the holding of a hand and a few quiet words could make all the difference in the world...

We live in a world where peace exists only by reason of a balance of terror. I have often thought that if great numbers of the women of all nations were to unite and lift their voices in the cause of peace, there would develop a worldwide will for peace which could save our civilization and avoid untold suffering, misery, plague, starvation, and the death of millions.

Jesus was described as one “who went about doing good.” (Acts 10:38.) Can you, as His followers, do less? In organizing the Relief society, the Prophet Joseph Smith said concerning the women, “They will pour in oil and wine to the wounded heart of the distressed; they will dry up the tears of the orphan and make the widow’s heart to rejoice.” (History of the Church, 4:567.)

2. Prayer. Here is a great spiritual gift available to all. Every woman has as certain a right to approach the throne of deity in prayer as does any man. I am convinced that our Father in Heaven loves his daughters as much as He loves His sons and that He is as ready to hear their pleas and grant their petitions. The words of James concerning the blessing of the sick are interesting:

“Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

“And the prayer of faith shall save the sick.” (James 5:14–15.)

I repeat, “the prayer of faith shall save the sick.” It is the privilege and the responsibility of those holding the priesthood to anoint and bless. It is their privilege also to pray. And it is likewise your privilege to pray, with the full expectation that your Father in Heaven will hear that prayer when it is offered in faith.

It is your privilege to pray in the meetings of the Church—not only in the meetings of the women’s organizations, but in the sacrament meetings when all of the saints are admonished to gather together. It is your privilege to pray in such tremendous gatherings as this. I hope you noted the beautiful and touching prayer of Sister Perezegea at the opening of this meeting. Each of you has available the great spiritual gift of prayer.

3. It is your privilege and right to teach. You come within the province of the admonition given by the Lord:

“And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.

“Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand.” (D&C 88:77–78.)

And further: “And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.” (D&C 88:118.)

When I was a boy growing up in the First Ward in Liberty Stake, the president of the Relief Society was Elder Mark E. Petersen’s mother-in-law, Sister Sarah McDonald. She was also the teacher of the Gospel Doctrine class in the Sunday School. The men, as well as the women, profited from her down-to-earth wisdom, her unique sense of humor, her tremendous scholarship and familiarity with the scriptures, and her unyielding testimony which came of the great sacrifice she had made for membership in this Church.

Yours, my sisters, is the privilege to teach, yours the responsibility, yours the opportunity. There are few resources of which we are in greater need than dedicated teachers of the gospel who teach with faith, with conviction, and with the knowledge that comes of study.

4. Yours is the opportunity to preside. You have heard from Sister Young, who presides over the Primary Association, with combined enrollments of 825,000. You have heard from Sister Kapp, who presides over some 300,000 young women. You have heard from Sister Winder, who presides over the Relief Society, which includes 1,682,000 women across the world.

When one of the candidates for the presidency of the United States visited us a year ago, I introduced these three women to him. I stated that Sister Winder presided over more than 1,600,000 women. He seemed incredulous. He possibly had heard some of the nonsense that Mormon women are subjugated and have no opportunities. When he met this charming woman and was told that she presided over 1,600,000 other women, he looked as if he could scarcely believe it.

These women have counselors. They have general boards. They have their counterparts in stakes and wards. They deal with vast responsibilities, vast resources, and large numbers of people. They are executives in the truest sense.

Sister Winder and Sister Kapp serve as members of the Board of Trustees of Brigham Young University, the largest private university in America. They likewise serve as members of the Church Board of Education. Their views carry as much weight as do the views of any of the Brethren. Sister Winder and her counselors serve as members of the General Welfare Committee. This is the policy-making body governing all Church welfare activities. Sister Young serves on the National Cub Scout Committee.

My dear sisters, you, as women, have tremendous executive responsibilities in this Church. And no one appreciates more than I the wonderful contributions you make and the great wisdom you bring.

5. Yours may be the spirit of prophecy. That may sound strange to some of you. Miriam in the Old Testament is spoken of as a prophetess. Peter, on the day of Pentecost, repeated the words of the prophet Joel, saying:

“And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

“And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.” (Acts 2:17–18.)

Can anyone doubt that many women have a special intuitive sense, even a prescient understanding of things to come?

John the Revelator makes a very interesting statement: “The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (Rev. 19:10.) As much so as any man in the world, each of you has the opportunity and the responsibility to develop a testimony of Jesus as the Savior of mankind. That testimony is the “spirit of prophecy.” It is a gift that may be yours.

6. Yours is the opportunity to proclaim the gospel. Exclusive of missionary couples, we now have 5,872 sister missionaries serving in the field. For the most part, these are young women who are called as other missionaries are called. Many mission presidents give their sister missionaries credit for being more effective than the elders in opening doors and minds to the teaching of the gospel. One mission president told me, perhaps facetiously, that if he had four pairs of sister missionaries doing the finding and the teaching, he could keep a pair of elders busy doing the baptizing.

You will immediately ask why, then, are lady missionaries not called until they are twenty-one, when young men are called at nineteen? While we recognize the vast good that sister missionaries do, and while we greatly appreciate their tremendous service, we are reluctant to have in the field the same or a larger number of sister missionaries than elders. I believe there is great wisdom in this.

Furthermore, we regard a happy marriage as the greatest mission any young woman can enjoy, and we feel that the opportunities for such will be increased if there is some delay in young women going into the mission field.

Nevertheless, you have the privilege. You have the right, conditioned upon worthiness. You have the opportunity, whether serving as full-time missionaries or on a local basis, to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ with power and conviction.

7. Women have the great opportunities of the blessings of the temple. The right to receive the temple ordinances pertains as much to women as it does to men. The blessings to be received through that experience are as great for women as they are for men. While we discourage young women from going to the temple, just as we do young men, unless they serve as full-time missionaries, yet in the long term, in life or eternity, every worthy woman in the Church may qualify to receive the blessing of the temple endowment.

For the woman who is married in the temple, there is afforded the opportunity for happiness and for security, for time and for all eternity, to a degree to be found in no other type of marriage. In fact, only in marriage in the house of the Lord can there be the promise of eternal companionship, conditioned, of course, upon the faithfulness of both parties to that marriage. The man cannot be exalted without the woman; neither the woman without the man. (See 1 Cor. 11:11.)

8. Yours is also the privilege to minister in the temples. Women do the vicarious work for women. It is as important that this work be done in behalf of those beyond the veil in the case of women as it is in the case of men. The work you so do is as acceptable to the Lord. It is necessary for the accomplishment of his purposes. It is as spiritually uplifting as is that which men do.

Furthermore, women fill very important responsibilities as ordinance workers in the temple. As surely as there is a temple president, there is also a temple matron. There must be many who assist her in carrying forward the sacred ordinance work of the House of the Lord.

9. I mention next the unique and God-given privilege of motherhood. There is no miracle in all the world like the creation of new life. There is no responsibility greater than rearing children in “the nurture and admonition of the Lord.” (Eph. 6:4.)

Without a mother’s efforts, her pain, her family concerns and service, it goes without saying that the race would soon die. The purposes of God would be totally frustrated.

Her partnership with the Almighty in bringing to pass His eternal plan is a blessing that no man can enjoy in the same sense.

I recognize, of course, that there are many within the sound of my voice who are not married and who may never be married in this life. The number of adult women who are presently unmarried constitutes approximately a third of the female members of the Church in the United States and Canada. However, this blessing is afforded two-thirds of the women of the Church. To you who are mothers, I wish to say that I know that your labors are heavy, that your burdens are many, that the task of rearing children in this complex age is a serious and demanding one. But there can be no doubt that as the years pass you will enjoy a sense of satisfaction that will come in no other way. You will enjoy a measure of peace, of love, of that gladness which is deep and sweet and good and which can come from no other source.

To you who are single parents with families to rear, I know that yours is a particularly heavy burden. We pray that the Lord will bless you and sustain you and that you will have resources to do that which must be done and to do it well. The resources of the Church can be mobilized to help you when you need help.

I think of my wife’s grandmother who, as a young married woman, went to Manti with her husband, who was called to work on the temple when it was being constructed there. While so working, he suffered an injury which took his life. She lived a widow for more than sixty years, working and struggling, most of the time alone, to rear and educate her children. Her lot was hard, but her satisfaction was great and her accomplishment heroic.

I recognize that there are many unmarried women who long to have a child. Some think of bringing this about by artificial impregnation. This the Church strongly discourages. Those who do so may expect to be disciplined by the Church. A child so conceived and born cannot be sealed to one parent. This procedure frustrates the eternal family plan.

10. I conclude with the tenth great privilege and opportunity you have. This is the opportunity and the encouragement to educate your minds and hands, to refine your talents, and to so qualify yourself to work in the society in which you will live.

I am grateful that women today are afforded the same opportunity to study for science, for the professions, and for every other facet of human knowledge. You are as entitled as are men to the Spirit of Christ, which enlightens every man and woman who comes into the world. (See D&C 84:46.) Set your priorities in terms of marriage and family, but also pursue educational programs which will lead to satisfying work and productive employment in case you do not marry, or to a sense of security and fulfillment in the event you do marry.

It is also important to enhance one’s appreciation of the arts and culture which are of the very substance of our civilization. Can anyone doubt that good music is godly or that there can be something of the essence of heaven in great art? Education will increase your appreciation and refine your talent.

God bless you, my beloved sisters. Please know that you are deeply appreciated. Please know that your place in the divine plan is no less important, no less great, and no less necessary than that of men. Paul has said, “Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” (1 Cor. 11:11.)

Count your wonderful blessings. Do not worry away your lives with concerns over “rights,” so-called (right on bro. Hinkley), but move forward, concerned with responsibilities and opportunities. Your potential is limitless. You are daughters of God, endowed by inheritance with marvelous gifts and immeasurable potential. Accept the challenge. Go forward with confidence in the knowledge that the differences you face are not those which come of discrimination so much as those which come of designation (this is brilliant). That you may be happy, and that your lives may be rich with that satisfaction which comes from the development of your spiritual gifts, I humbly pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
truth dancer wrote:Thank you Scratch. That was my point.

Having children does not mean one has a healthy, romantic, intimate relationship.

My observation is that garments harm intimate relationships because many women feel asexual, unattractive, ugly, which inhibits and thwarts a sexual desire. In addition few men I know, (like no one) finds their wife attractive while wearing garments. Garments on women (in my opinion purposely) thwart the sexual desire in men. I'm not saying men become asexual, I'm suggesting seeing one's wife in something so ugly and odd does not lend itself to being sexually attracted to her.

~dancer~


Ok, so I wil ask you, how many men other then your one have you discussed this with. How many women?


Jason---

Are you kidding? You've already had a few males on this thread tell you that garments are sexually unappealing. Just what is it you're trying to argue, exactly? That the garments are hot? That they don't interfere at all with sexual attraction, what?


Maybe you need to go back and re-read. TD claims that woman and men have major issues with garments, that they stifle sexuality, make women feel totally unappealing, etc. etc. I proposed that she is projecting her own negativety on other and that I do not believe it is as extensive as she thinks.


Conversely, could it be that you are projecting your "non-issue" onto every one else in order to downplay whatever problems some people may have? If you're simply arguing along a "raw numbers" line.... Well, big deal, you know? There's no way to prove it one way or another. Pretty much all we have to go on are the revisions which have been made to the garments themselves---revisions which, if I'm not mistaken, came about in much the same way as the 1990 temple revisions. (I.e., by way of a survey.)


She asked me how many women I have discussed this with. I said not many. She continues to claim that this is a big issue. So I asked howm many men she had discussed this with.

No I am not arguing the garments are hot. Where did you get that idea? Yes I do not believe that for most the interfere with sexual attraction.


So perhaps here is the place where the argument ought to be taking place? Whether or not there is "interference," or indeed what, exactly, constitutes "interference"? You yourself said that the garments, essentially, "aren't hot." Thus, isn't it fair to say that they are a kind of "barrier," so to speak?

My personal experienve is that they do not. We just take them off, or replace them with something more sexy or whatever.


More implicit evidence that they just "get in the way" of straightforward desire and sexuality.

I certainly could be wrong about all this but I think a few commens from dissaffected members like yourself needs o be taken with a lot of salt and really think that extrapolating the negative emotions about garments and sexuality on the minds of most active TBMs is a mistake.


Dear me, Jason, what on earth ever made you think I was "dissaffected"? And who's "extrapolating"? So far as I can tell, TD and myself are simply relying on the available evidence. You, on the other hand, are arguing exclusively from your own quite biased subjectivity, my friend.
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Coggins7 wrote:
Short answer for the direct question of the thread: yes, the church is sexist. So is most of the rest of the world, so it's not like they're alone. The church is very traditional, because it's run by very traditional men who are stuck in the 50's. Once the present generation of leaders die, we'll see changes in the church around several issues, including women's issues. Those who are traditionalists are praying mightily for the leaders to stay alive; those who are progressive can't wait until they all die.


Loran:

The short answer to the above is that the above is a product of the standard, politically correct, post sixties, revisionist filtering system through which every question ultimately must pass before being regurgitated onto the idiologically correct silver platter of modern pop politics and served up with all the smarmy, self satisfied certitude the annointed Boomer and post Boomer generation of navel gazing pop philosophers can muster.

I deny unequivocally that the Church is "sexist" (and lets be up front with the fact that "sexism" is an Orwellian term; a form of politicized speech created by the radical feminists in the late sixties to define their own ideolgocal enemies, and has no necessary connection to real world conditions or attitudes when not defined within the Feminist ideological framework. Radical Feminism is a form of cultural Marxism, and hence takes a militant, Manichean stance regarding relations between men and woman and the disparate roles of each within society).


Any sources to back up your remarks, Loran? I think you are grossly oversimplifying the Feminist Movement, which most critics see as having three distinctive waves, within which are pretty disparate poles of "radicalness," including some that were heartifly embraced---ideologically speaking---by the LDS Church. (Think of Andrea Dworkin.) Also, I gather that you're completely unaware of the Women's Suffrage Movement, which took place a good deal prior to the era you seem to disapprove of so much?

Indeed, LDS doctrine places the feminine and its various aspects, including motherhood, in an exalted position, above, in many statements that could be brought to bear here, the official callings of males holding the Priesthood.


Nevertheless, LDS women cannot hold any ecclesiastic position, and they are dependent upon men for exaltation in a way that's not the same when the situation is reversed.

The sheer preposterous nonesense bandied about on this thread is truly depressing. We have people holding to one religion (Leftist feminism) criticising others not a part of that religion for not accepting their own principles, forgetting apparantly that this sword has to edges. The rather large corpus of statements and teachings by church leaders regarding the overarching importance of woman and their unique roles in the Church are carefully stepped over lest we get our feet wet, and a completely artificial view of woman's position in the Church, and in the restored gospel is spun out of whole, if rough PC cloth.


The "unique role" of women in the Church is a subservient one. Good luck trying to prove otherwise. Even hardcore TBMs such as Calmoriah feel that they are living under the thumb of men within the Church.
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Re: Some selected statements of GBH with my italics...

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Coggins7 wrote:From the General Women’s Meeting held Saturday evening, 28 September 1985


Some are prone to complain that you are discriminated against. All of us rejoice in the enlargement of opportunities for women. Under the law, there are few opportunities afforded men that are not now also open to women. With this enlargement of opportunity, a few Latter-day Saint women are asking why they are not entitled to hold the priesthood. To that I can say that only the Lord, through revelation, could alter that situation. He has not done so, so it is profitless for us to speculate and worry about it. May I suggest, rather, that you dwell on the remarkable blessings that are yours, the great positive privileges of your lives as women of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the transcendent spiritual gifts that may be yours. I should like to name ten of these, with their coincident responsibilities. I shall have time to comment only briefly on each.


In other words, "Shut up ladies, and get back to work." Much the same advice was doled out to complaining Blacks prior to the lifting of the ban. Thus, in a likewise manner, more fomenting on the part of women would likely lead to new revelation, much like "stirring the pot," lawsuits, threat of losing tax-exempt status, etc. led to (or at the very least contributed to) the 1978 revelation.

1. You have the gift, the opportunity, and the responsibility of doing good. You possess an instinctive inclination to help those in distress, and you have a peculiar and remarkable way of doing so. There are so many who need your help. There are boys and girls who flounder and drift and waste their lives for want of someone interested in them to counsel and reassure and comfort and direct them.

Nursing homes are filled with the aged and the infirm who cry out for a listening ear and a comforting word. There are so many who are lonely and afraid for whom a little companionship would mean so very, very much. There are the sick and dying who live in pain and fear for whom the holding of a hand and a few quiet words could make all the difference in the world...


Men could attend to this, too. Do they? Or do they instead sit around in meetings, determining how to hack up the budget?

We live in a world where peace exists only by reason of a balance of terror. I have often thought that if great numbers of the women of all nations were to unite and lift their voices in the cause of peace, there would develop a worldwide will for peace which could save our civilization and avoid untold suffering, misery, plague, starvation, and the death of millions.


Seems a trifle bit contradictory, in my opinion. To extend the thinking a bit, it would make far more sense to give women leadership positions, thus enabling them to "lift their voices" with much greater ease.

Jesus was described as one “who went about doing good.” (Acts 10:38.) Can you, as His followers, do less? In organizing the Relief society, the Prophet Joseph Smith said concerning the women, “They will pour in oil and wine to the wounded heart of the distressed; they will dry up the tears of the orphan and make the widow’s heart to rejoice.” (History of the Church, 4:567.)

2. Prayer. Here is a great spiritual gift available to all. Every woman has as certain a right to approach the throne of deity in prayer as does any man. I am convinced that our Father in Heaven loves his daughters as much as He loves His sons and that He is as ready to hear their pleas and grant their petitions.


All of this is saying that, at best, women are mere equals to men. And the lowliest man at that. Is there any area within the Church where women are allowed to excel?

The words of James concerning the blessing of the sick are interesting:

“Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

“And the prayer of faith shall save the sick.” (James 5:14–15.)

I repeat, “the prayer of faith shall save the sick.” It is the privilege and the responsibility of those holding the priesthood to anoint and bless. It is their privilege also to pray. And it is likewise your privilege to pray, with the full expectation that your Father in Heaven will hear that prayer when it is offered in faith.

It is your privilege to pray in the meetings of the Church—not only in the meetings of the women’s organizations, but in the sacrament meetings when all of the saints are admonished to gather together. It is your privilege to pray in such tremendous gatherings as this. I hope you noted the beautiful and touching prayer of Sister Perezegea at the opening of this meeting. Each of you has available the great spiritual gift of prayer.


I'm afraid I'm going to have to point out the fact that prayer is herein called "a privilege." Do you need to be reminded why that's so, Loran? Have you forgotten that women used to be barred from offering up prayers in sac. meeting?

3. It is your privilege and right to teach. You come within the province of the admonition given by the Lord:

“And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.


Except, of course, the LDS doctrine which truly recognizes the divinity of woman: the Heavenly Mother doctrine. In fact, if a woman teaches about this, she can face disciplinary measures including excommunication.

“Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand.” (D&C 88:77–78.)

And further: “And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.” (D&C 88:118.)

When I was a boy growing up in the First Ward in Liberty Stake, the president of the Relief Society was Elder Mark E. Petersen’s mother-in-law, Sister Sarah McDonald. She was also the teacher of the Gospel Doctrine class in the Sunday School. The men, as well as the women, profited from her down-to-earth wisdom, her unique sense of humor, her tremendous scholarship and familiarity with the scriptures, and her unyielding testimony which came of the great sacrifice she had made for membership in this Church.

Yours, my sisters, is the privilege to teach, yours the responsibility, yours the opportunity. There are few resources of which we are in greater need than dedicated teachers of the gospel who teach with faith, with conviction, and with the knowledge that comes of study.

4. Yours is the opportunity to preside. You have heard from Sister Young, who presides over the Primary Association, with combined enrollments of 825,000. You have heard from Sister Kapp, who presides over some 300,000 young women. You have heard from Sister Winder, who presides over the Relief Society, which includes 1,682,000 women across the world.

When one of the candidates for the presidency of the United States visited us a year ago, I introduced these three women to him. I stated that Sister Winder presided over more than 1,600,000 women. He seemed incredulous. He possibly had heard some of the nonsense that Mormon women are subjugated and have no opportunities. When he met this charming woman and was told that she presided over 1,600,000 other women, he looked as if he could scarcely believe it.

These women have counselors. They have general boards. They have their counterparts in stakes and wards. They deal with vast responsibilities, vast resources, and large numbers of people. They are executives in the truest sense.

Sister Winder and Sister Kapp serve as members of the Board of Trustees of Brigham Young University, the largest private university in America. They likewise serve as members of the Church Board of Education. Their views carry as much weight as do the views of any of the Brethren. Sister Winder and her counselors serve as members of the General Welfare Committee. This is the policy-making body governing all Church welfare activities. Sister Young serves on the National Cub Scout Committee.


All of this seems a bit of an equivocation, in my opinion. Obviously these sisters do not have "as much weight" power- or opinion-wise as the Brethren. That is utter nonsense, in my opinion. Besides, whatever power they do have is undercut by the fact that they do not hold the priesthood.

My dear sisters, you, as women, have tremendous executive responsibilities in this Church. And no one appreciates more than I the wonderful contributions you make and the great wisdom you bring.


Note that "executive responsibilities" is left vague and non-specific. What do you suppose he's referring to here?

5. Yours may be the spirit of prophecy. That may sound strange to some of you. Miriam in the Old Testament is spoken of as a prophetess. Peter, on the day of Pentecost, repeated the words of the prophet Joel, saying:

“And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

“And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.” (Acts 2:17–18.)

Can anyone doubt that many women have a special intuitive sense, even a prescient understanding of things to come?

John the Revelator makes a very interesting statement: “The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (Rev. 19:10.) As much so as any man in the world, each of you has the opportunity and the responsibility to develop a testimony of Jesus as the Savior of mankind. That testimony is the “spirit of prophecy.” It is a gift that may be yours.


Okay, but how is a woman supposed to exercise this gift?

6. Yours is the opportunity to proclaim the gospel. Exclusive of missionary couples, we now have 5,872 sister missionaries serving in the field. For the most part, these are young women who are called as other missionaries are called. Many mission presidents give their sister missionaries credit for being more effective than the elders in opening doors and minds to the teaching of the gospel. One mission president told me, perhaps facetiously, that if he had four pairs of sister missionaries doing the finding and the teaching, he could keep a pair of elders busy doing the baptizing.

You will immediately ask why, then, are lady missionaries not called until they are twenty-one, when young men are called at nineteen? While we recognize the vast good that sister missionaries do, and while we greatly appreciate their tremendous service, we are reluctant to have in the field the same or a larger number of sister missionaries than elders. I believe there is great wisdom in this.


Which is.... How interesting that this "wisdom" goes unexplained. Or does it?

Furthermore, we regard a happy marriage as the greatest mission any young woman can enjoy, and we feel that the opportunities for such will be increased if there is some delay in young women going into the mission field.


Ah, I see. Better for a woman to get married straight away, rather than experience a mission. Yet another gender-based discrepancy.

Nevertheless, you have the privilege. You have the right, conditioned upon worthiness.


And conditioned upon age, of course.

You have the opportunity, whether serving as full-time missionaries or on a local basis, to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ with power and conviction.

7. Women have the great opportunities of the blessings of the temple. The right to receive the temple ordinances pertains as much to women as it does to men. The blessings to be received through that experience are as great for women as they are for men. While we discourage young women from going to the temple, just as we do young men, unless they serve as full-time missionaries, yet in the long term, in life or eternity, every worthy woman in the Church may qualify to receive the blessing of the temple endowment.

For the woman who is married in the temple, there is afforded the opportunity for happiness and for security, for time and for all eternity, to a degree to be found in no other type of marriage. In fact, only in marriage in the house of the Lord can there be the promise of eternal companionship, conditioned, of course, upon the faithfulness of both parties to that marriage. The man cannot be exalted without the woman; neither the woman without the man. (See 1 Cor. 11:11.)


No arguments here, although I would like to add that a woman's dependence---doctrinally speaking---upon men for exaltation does indeed get played out in the temple.

8. Yours is also the privilege to minister in the temples. Women do the vicarious work for women. It is as important that this work be done in behalf of those beyond the veil in the case of women as it is in the case of men. The work you so do is as acceptable to the Lord. It is necessary for the accomplishment of his purposes. It is as spiritually uplifting as is that which men do.

Furthermore, women fill very important responsibilities as ordinance workers in the temple. As surely as there is a temple president, there is also a temple matron. There must be many who assist her in carrying forward the sacred ordinance work of the House of the Lord.

9. I mention next the unique and God-given privilege of motherhood. There is no miracle in all the world like the creation of new life. There is no responsibility greater than rearing children in “the nurture and admonition of the Lord.” (Eph. 6:4.)

Without a mother’s efforts, her pain, her family concerns and service, it goes without saying that the race would soon die. The purposes of God would be totally frustrated.

Her partnership with the Almighty in bringing to pass His eternal plan is a blessing that no man can enjoy in the same sense.


Here, we're cutting to the chase: women are supposed to have kids, plain and simple.

I recognize, of course, that there are many within the sound of my voice who are not married and who may never be married in this life. The number of adult women who are presently unmarried constitutes approximately a third of the female members of the Church in the United States and Canada. However, this blessing is afforded two-thirds of the women of the Church. To you who are mothers, I wish to say that I know that your labors are heavy, that your burdens are many, that the task of rearing children in this complex age is a serious and demanding one. But there can be no doubt that as the years pass you will enjoy a sense of satisfaction that will come in no other way. You will enjoy a measure of peace, of love, of that gladness which is deep and sweet and good and which can come from no other source.

To you who are single parents with families to rear, I know that yours is a particularly heavy burden. We pray that the Lord will bless you and sustain you and that you will have resources to do that which must be done and to do it well. The resources of the Church can be mobilized to help you when you need help.

I think of my wife’s grandmother who, as a young married woman, went to Manti with her husband, who was called to work on the temple when it was being constructed there. While so working, he suffered an injury which took his life. She lived a widow for more than sixty years, working and struggling, most of the time alone, to rear and educate her children. Her lot was hard, but her satisfaction was great and her accomplishment heroic.

I recognize that there are many unmarried women who long to have a child. Some think of bringing this about by artificial impregnation. This the Church strongly discourages. Those who do so may expect to be disciplined by the Church. A child so conceived and born cannot be sealed to one parent. This procedure frustrates the eternal family plan.


I don't even know what to say to this.

10. I conclude with the tenth great privilege and opportunity you have. This is the opportunity and the encouragement to educate your minds and hands, to refine your talents, and to so qualify yourself to work in the society in which you will live.

I am grateful that women today are afforded the same opportunity to study for science, for the professions, and for every other facet of human knowledge. You are as entitled as are men to the Spirit of Christ, which enlightens every man and woman who comes into the world. (See D&C 84:46.) Set your priorities in terms of marriage and family, but also pursue educational programs which will lead to satisfying work and productive employment in case you do not marry, or to a sense of security and fulfillment in the event you do marry.


Yep, this sounds real equitable to me.

It is also important to enhance one’s appreciation of the arts and culture which are of the very substance of our civilization. Can anyone doubt that good music is godly or that there can be something of the essence of heaven in great art? Education will increase your appreciation and refine your talent.

God bless you, my beloved sisters. Please know that you are deeply appreciated. Please know that your place in the divine plan is no less important, no less great, and no less necessary than that of men. Paul has said, “Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” (1 Cor. 11:11.)

Count your wonderful blessings. Do not worry away your lives with concerns over “rights,” so-called (right on bro. Hinkley), but move forward, concerned with responsibilities and opportunities. Your potential is limitless. You are daughters of God, endowed by inheritance with marvelous gifts and immeasurable potential. Accept the challenge. Go forward with confidence in the knowledge that the differences you face are not those which come of discrimination so much as those which come of designation (this is brilliant). That you may be happy, and that your lives may be rich with that satisfaction which comes from the development of your spiritual gifts, I humbly pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.


Brilliant....how? Because the differences have (ironically) been designated by the Church itself? Sorry, Loran, but this is pretty weak support of your argument.
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