Christian accountability

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_harmony
_Emeritus
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Post by _harmony »

Jason Bourne wrote:
The one dominant theme I've noticed in my years in the LDS church is the emphasis on authority.


Yes. Follow the brethren, keep your eyes on the brethren, follow the prophet.


And we are marching in step, straight to hell.

Yet our leaders do not understand even a tiny bit about the authority they supposedly hold. The so-called keys to the kingdom aren't authority and power.


Well they are supposed to be the authority of God and the priesthood to administer ordinances.


And yet, nowhere in the required interview questions does the gospel of Jesus Christ appear. So what good are ordinances administered without the requisite emphasis on love and service? No good. They become simply rote, mindless drivel of no internal worth.

The keys of the kingdom are love and service.


Now you are striking on the weightier matters of the gospel or law. Yea, these are the things that most of us, LDS and others really have trouble doing.


What others do is immaterial to those who have shouldered the weight of the fullness of the gospel. It's what we do that's impacts us. And we do a lousy job of living the gospel, which is one reason why only 12 million people out of the billions in the world today are members. WE aren't that light on the hill, showing forth our light so that others may see it and glorify our Father in Heaven. WE are poor examples, with our malls, our city streets, our profits... and our miniscule in comparison efforts to ease the burdens of the poor and downtrodden. Why would anyone want to join with us? We aren't at all worthy of anyone's desire to be like us.

Jesus's gospel isn't about buying malls and city streets, worthiness or interviews, endless meetings, talks, temple ceremonies, or courts of love. Jesus' gospel is about loving our neighbors, helping the helpless, caring for the widowed and handicapped, giving of our abudance until there are no rich among us, serving those whom others turn their backs on.


I do agree. So many times in the endless meetings for leadership training, PECs, councils and on and on I wonder that we can go to these meetings and feel like we are magnifying our calling or living our religion. It seems like we go to some boring meeting just to satisfy ourselves that we are doing something. Oh sure, some planning and organizing in good and needed. But what more could we do with our time??


If we were the people God's people should be, there would be no rich among us. Think about that, Jason. It isn't that there would be no poor among us. No, as Christ said, the poor will always be with us. It's that there would be no RICH among us. And yet look around you. We are rich. We are disgustingly rich, and our leaders show us the way. How so? Because the rich are rewarded with leadership callings, which allows them entry into circles of more and more rich.

If we would be the peculiar people we could be, we'd stand out from main stream religion simply because we would serve God. Unfortunately, we are not peculiar at all. We teach our children to hate their neighbor,


You are going overboard here. We do not teach our children to hate their neighbor.


Unfortunately, yes, we do. When we teach our children that people who drink beer or coffee are bad, when we won't allow our children to play with nonmember children, when we pull our children away from experiences like feeding street people or giving money to beggars, or when we allow our children to treat poor children in our wards or schools like dirt... what we're really doing is teaching them to hate anyone who isn't Mormon, who looks different, who is poor, who is homeless.

we're as materialistic as any
,

Some are, some are not.


We are members of God's church. We should have NO rich, so your "some" is too many. If Pres Hinckley stood up in conference and told us God requires us all to bust ourselves down to the bare minimums and give the rest away (which is what Christ requires of the rich man), how many people would do that? Recommend Ridge (which is what a friend of mine calls the ridge above SLC) is full of million+ dollar homes. How many of them would sell everything they have, give it to the poor, and live in a bare-minimum housing? None. None, Jason. None. Even though that is EXACTLY what Christ requires, if we are to truly live his gospel. And we KNOW this. We've heard this over and over and over, and we still don't get it! We think if we give $10 on fast Sunday, that's enough. Well, guess what! IT'S NOT ENOUGH! We love gold more than we love God.

there is no accountability for the money given, our leaders are in this for the money


I often here that leaders are in it for money. This is poppy cock. Where is evidence of this? It seems most the GAs, have fairly modest middle class lives. Some have money that they may have made in their career. Now I know we do not know what they make. My guess is it is similar to what equal jobs in business might be. But I see no reason to believe the GAs are padding their pockets in some devious or major way.


Do you know how much the condominum apartment is worth that Pres Hinckley lives in? It's valued at over $1.5 million. Now... tell me again about the poppy cock? I'm not saying Pres Hinckley needs to live in a shack, but there's no reason for that kind of going overboard. You and many others don't like to think of Pres Hinckley that way (neither do I), but the facts are out there. It's on public record, for tax purposes. He lives in a million+ dollar apartment. He's worked for the church virtually all his life, so don't tell me it's all volunteer.

My mother's church has a parsonage. It's a doublewide trailer. It's provided as part of the parson's salary. They're very upfront about it. Why do we claim we don't pay our clergy, when quite frankly, it's a damned lie? We pay them. Million+ dollar apartments aren't part of my mom's clergy's package, but at least they aren't lying about it.

and personal glory, and we give so little in comparison to our worth that we should be ashamed.


Some may like the glory. What we (meaning the LDS Church gives-well we just do not know that do we. But it does take a lot of money to runs a Church and maintain the buildings we meet in. The LDS Church also tends to use its buildings to the max, putting many wards in one building when the population justifies it. They also give a lot in FO assistance to members of the Church and even to non members some. Do you take that into account in humanitarian aid?


Do you know how many zeros are in a billion, Jason? That's a thousand million. One thousand million. We spent that on a MALL. And the only reason we know that is because it's public record. We don't know how our money is spent, because our leaders are so afraid we'll be shocked, they keep it secret. Secret, no sacred, Jason. They keep it SECRET from us. They don't want us to know.

I work for a national non-profit that brings in billions of dollars every year, and I can give you a report that shows where every danged penny goes. EVERY penny. We're 90 some odd years old, and I give you reports from decades back, and show you where every penny went. I can't tell you where one thin dime of the money MY church goes. They keep that information from me.

We should be ashamed at our collective and individual unwillingness to live the fullness of the gospel. If we were living it even the tiniest bit, we'd look much different than we do now.


While we can do better I do believe many members do good and do service and seek for ways to bless those less fortunate. I think you are being overly cynical here.


I agree. Unfortunately, it's hard to shake the rich man/eye of the needle thing. We are generally a very rich church, both institutionally and individually. And yet, we do so little, it's shameful, in relation to what we've been blessed with. When much is given, MUCH IS EXPECTED. And we're letting God down, because we aren't coming anywhere close to those expectations.

We'd feel much different than we do now. Our priorities would be much different than they are now. Our books would be open to the public. We wouldn't be spending billions on business and thousands on humanitarian efforts.


Well we know we have spent 100's of millions on humanitarian aid. And again, that does not take into account FO assistance. Also, I am not sure if you have ever visited the Humanitarian aid center in SLC. You should. You might change your tune a bit.


And we just spent thousands of millions on a piece of real estate. How humanitarian is that?

If nothing else changed, that would be reversed. We'd open the doors of the temples and invite everyone inside. We'd embrace our history and point out our mistakes to everyone, and show how we've changed from that time to this. Our children would be taught what "through a glass darkly" means, and how that relates to our prophets. We would worship God, not prophets.


We do not worship the prophets.


Indeed. We talk about the prophets constantly, we study them in our auxilliaries, we give speeches about them, we write and buy books about them. We fixate on what they say, as if God himself was standing at the pulpit. We exalt them above other men. They have bodyguards, maids, luxury apartments, private jets at their disposal, limousines, and bullet proof glass. We hang on every word they say. Their tiniest foible becomes law. Worship... indeed.

Pres Benson was right: this church isunder condemnation, although he got the reason wrong. We aren't under condemnation because we don't live the Book of Mormon. We're under condemnation because we don't live the fullness of the gospel which we have been given. We know what we're supposed to do, but our leaders don't lead us in the right direction, and we follow all too willingly, when we know we're on the wrong path. Those of us who stick it out, trying in our own small way to change the direction of the Titanic/LDS church, risk being thrown overboard/excommunicated every day.


Oh come now.


You don't agree?
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

Roger Morrison wrote:Edited to congratulate myself on this being my 100th post: "Congratulation Roger, you're still here!" Guess i should thank Shades for that: "Thanks Doc!"


You're welcome!
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Re: Christian accountability

Post by _Sam Harris »

wenglund wrote:
harmony wrote:
wenglund wrote:
Roger Morrison wrote:Why don't Christians get THE message: "It isn't about YOU and Heaven--it's about OTHERS and the Hell, here and now they experience in A CHRISTIAN society, at the hands of Christians!"


Did you intend to be this one-sided and intollerant in your stereotyping of Christians?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


I think he's talking about Christian society, as opposed to individuals, Wade.


So?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Did you intend to give some substance to this thread, or did you just want to de-rail it like you have so many others, because it didn't follow a pattern you set out?

Thanks,

GIMR
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_wenglund
_Emeritus
Posts: 4947
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:25 pm

Re: Christian accountability

Post by _wenglund »

GIMR wrote:
wenglund wrote:
harmony wrote:
wenglund wrote:
Roger Morrison wrote:Why don't Christians get THE message: "It isn't about YOU and Heaven--it's about OTHERS and the Hell, here and now they experience in A CHRISTIAN society, at the hands of Christians!"


Did you intend to be this one-sided and intollerant in your stereotyping of Christians?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


I think he's talking about Christian society, as opposed to individuals, Wade.


So?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Did you intend to give some substance to this thread, or did you just want to de-rail it like you have so many others, because it didn't follow a pattern you set out? Thanks, GIMR


It is not the topic that is of interest to me, but the questionable sentiment undergirding the OP on the topic. In otherwords I am looking to make accountable those who portend to stand in judgement of Christians.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Harmony, thank You for contributing your frank insightful thought-worthy comments below: And, thanks to all who have taken part in this discussion with candor AND grace. No personal attacks yet well expressed counter statements. Not always the case :-)

harmony wrote:The one dominant theme I've noticed in my years in the LDS church is the emphasis on authority. Yet our leaders do not understand even a tiny bit about the authority they supposedly hold. The so-called keys to the kingdom aren't authority and power. The keys of the kingdom are love and service. Jesus's gospel isn't about buying malls and city streets, worthiness or interviews, endless meetings, talks, temple ceremonies, or courts of love. Jesus' gospel is about loving our neighbors, helping the helpless, caring for the widowed and handicapped, giving of our abudance until there are no rich among us, serving those whom others turn their backs on. If we would be the peculiar people we could be, we'd stand out from main stream religion simply because we would serve God. Unfortunately, we are not peculiar at all. We teach our children to hate their neighbor, we're as materialistic as any, there is no accountability for the money given, our leaders are in this for the money and personal glory, and we give so little in comparison to our worth that we should be ashamed.

We should be ashamed at our collective and individual unwillingness to live the fullness of the gospel. If we were living it even the tiniest bit, we'd look much different than we do now. We'd feel much different than we do now. Our priorities would be much different than they are now. Our books would be open to the public. We wouldn't be spending billions on business and thousands on humanitarian efforts. If nothing else changed, that would be reversed. We'd open the doors of the temples and invite everyone inside. We'd embrace our history and point out our mistakes to everyone, and show how we've changed from that time to this. Our children would be taught what "through a glass darkly" means, and how that relates to our prophets. We would worship God, not prophets. Bold added in respect of truth that is not always gentle. UL is what Jesus would expect in HIS Church. There is nothing in his New Testament (Book of Mormon?) words to indicate he taught such esoteric exclusivness.

Pres Benson was right: this church isunder condemnation, although he got the reason wrong. We aren't under condemnation because we don't live the Book of Mormon. We're under condemnation because we don't live the fullness of the gospel which we have been given. We know what we're supposed to do, but our leaders don't lead us in the right direction, and we follow all too willingly, when we know we're on the wrong path. Those of us who stick it out, trying in our own small way to change the direction of the Titanic/LDS church, risk being thrown overboard/excommunicated every day.

It's raining today; the sky is dark gray. My apologies for my equally dark thoughts.


No need to apologize. Your thoughts are needed. They do not dampen, but nourish seeds lying dormant in the dry parched soil that has limited the vine Christ planted some twenty centuries ago.

I hope no one thinks my comments were/are directed at individual individuals who make up Christian laity. They are not. They simply express my seriously considered opinion that "Christian Leaders" have led away from the "Good News" as Jesus brosdcast it. In all probability, if not in fact, those critical of Christianity in this thread are believers in the message of Jesus. As am i. They like wise have a belief that sustains them as much as anyone. This thread was not intended to threaten anyones' belief. It was, and i hope remains to be, a critical assessment of the priorities and applications of Jesus' principles in individual, community, institutional, political and world affairs as they are influenced by Christianity as expounded from pulpits of ALL Churches.

Through the centuries they (ALL Churches) expressed the sentiments of THEIR time as defenders or attackers of each others creeds, dogmas and rituals--sectarian parochialism. As do we...

Probably in some sense a good-thing or we would be stuck in antiquity performing rites and rituals to cleanse us from being born depraved. Wondering what we did wrong to be living through a drought, and praising our righteousness to be rewarded when crops excelled.

And yet "born depraved" is a diabolical belief still retained in-the-books of many Churches, while not in all the minds of their congregations. A REALLY good sign!

GIMR says:
I think that the Christian community really needs an overhaul. If we think that we're the way, we're really screwing up our presentation. You are right, many of the problems in the world today are due to religous superstition, misinformation, and superiority complexes. And we as believers aren't making the world any better...as a whole. I know there are people out there who want to institute positive change in alignment with their beliefs...without being ostentatious and disrespectful. But it's difficult (the positive change part).

The term "God's chosen people" has been so misused ever since the term was coined. People use that term to denote a sort of country club mentality, a "nah nah nah nah nah, God loves us and not you" behavior. But God's chosen people in the true spiritual and biblical sense were to be a people who represented God to the world.

Oh how we have messed that one up.

I for one am glad to see an upsurgence of churches who are breaking away from tradition, where the message and whether or not it penetrates is more important than what you wear, or how much you tithe. But we have a long way to go. One of the classes I took this past semester touched on the issues you have raised a bit. And it never occurred to me that you could be Christian in the most complete sense and yet be respectful of other faiths and worldviews, be environmentally conscious, and even be able to live among material things and not be consumed by them. The last is hard here in DC. Either you have the cushy desk job (and sacrifice your sanity for it), or you live with 18 other people.



Thanks G, how can what You say not be respected at least OR appreciated for its honest assessment of reality? I too am enheartend by RC modifications. And i do appreciate the Pope's traditional Christmas speach. Steps in the right direction. NOW "IF" all churches could set aside theology and join together in the THE TRUE AND UNIVERSAL MESSAGE, (even Paul sensed it way-back-then, 1 Cor 13:1-6) of Christ...

Must this be a grass-roots-thing? Imagine the power IF church leaders joined together in search of the blessings promised to "Peace Makers"! Warm regards, Roger

PS: I sure hope this thread comes to the attention of LDS hiearchy
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