Peterson and faith - No Scholarship, just truthiness

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_Fortigurn
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Re: vegas

Post by _Fortigurn »

rcrocket wrote:No hint? Absolutely none? (I know this is the EV view.) In my particular case, it did not initially come with a burning bosom. But, I point you to Luke 24:32 which is a lot more than a non-hint.


All that says is that while the disciples were talking with Jesus, they experienced a strong emotional sensation. They had absolutely no idea what it was or why they were experiencing it until after Jesus had revealed himself to them, and it certainly did not convict them of anything. In fact they couldn't explain it until Jesus had revealed himself openly. This is the opposite of the 'burning bosom' of Mormonism.

In 1 Thess 1:5-6, Paul writes: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for yours sake. You became imitators of us . . . ."

Thus, Paul himself says that a conviction of the Gospel is not necessarily conveyed with words (i.e., the scriptures) but with power, the Holy Spirit and deep conviction, and seeing the apostles in action.


Paul is saying, that the gospel was not merely presented to the Thessalonians by word, but by the visible signs provided by the Holy Spirit and by the conviction of the apostles themselves. He says nothing of the Thessalonians being convicted of the truth by a 'burning bosom'.

Augustine writes that...


I don't care for the writings of apostates 300 years after the New Testament era.

I think it is incorrect to characterize conversion to the Gospel being based simply upon a "warm and fuzzy feeling."


I agree. That's why I object to the LDS 'burning bosom'.
_rcrocket

Re: vegas

Post by _rcrocket »

Fortigurn wrote:
rcrocket wrote:No hint? Absolutely none? (I know this is the EV view.) In my particular case, it did not initially come with a burning bosom. But, I point you to Luke 24:32 which is a lot more than a non-hint.


All that says is that while the disciples were talking with Jesus, they experienced a strong emotional sensation. They had absolutely no idea what it was or why they were experiencing it until after Jesus had revealed himself to them, and it certainly did not convict them of anything. In fact they couldn't explain it until Jesus had revealed himself openly. This is the opposite of the 'burning bosom' of Mormonism.

In 1 Thess 1:5-6, Paul writes: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for yours sake. You became imitators of us . . . ."

Thus, Paul himself says that a conviction of the Gospel is not necessarily conveyed with words (i.e., the scriptures) but with power, the Holy Spirit and deep conviction, and seeing the apostles in action.


Paul is saying, that the gospel was not merely presented to the Thessalonians by word, but by the visible signs provided by the Holy Spirit and by the conviction of the apostles themselves. He says nothing of the Thessalonians being convicted of the truth by a 'burning bosom'.

Augustine writes that...


I don't care for the writings of apostates 300 years after the New Testament era.

I think it is incorrect to characterize conversion to the Gospel being based simply upon a "warm and fuzzy feeling."


I agree. That's why I object to the LDS 'burning bosom'.


I guess you won't be persuaded by the writings of apostolic fathers, either. The point is that few of these persons who were closer in time to the Savior were wedded to tha sola sciptura formulation for conversion; they talked about a spiritual witness, a conviction born by the spirit. "Burning in the bosom" is one of may ways the Spirit manifests itself, but not by any means the only way.

The eunuch had no clue what he was reading in Isaiah until a disciple, not an apostle, explained it to him. We, too, believe that in large part conversion comes on the basis of the testimonies of believers -- coupled with scripture. That is certainly the NT model in the scriptures I have cited.

Please don't respond by simply telling me that the "burning in the bosom" formulation doesn't work. I've already explained twice that that is not the LDS formulation for the discovery of spiritual truth; it is one of many ways.



In His Name,
rcrocket
_Fortigurn
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Re: vegas

Post by _Fortigurn »

rcrocket wrote:I guess you won't be persuaded by the writings of apostolic fathers, either.


Not unless they agree with what the apostles already said. In which case, I'm being persuaded by the apostles, not the later apostolic fathers.

The point is that few of these persons who were closer in time to the Savior were wedded to tha sola sciptura formulation for conversion; they talked about a spiritual witness, a conviction born by the spirit. "Burning in the bosom" is one of may ways the Spirit manifests itself, but not by any means the only way.


I don't care what people who lived after the 1st century did or did not think about the conversion process. The fact remains that the conversion process described in the New Testament did not consist of a 'burning bosom' as defined by the LDS church.

The eunuch had no clue what he was reading in Isaiah until a disciple, not an apostle, explained it to him.


I agree. So what? The important issue is that he experienced no 'burning bosom' when Philip expounded it to him, confirming to him that Philip's words were true.

We, too, believe that in large part conversion comes on the basis of the testimonies of believers -- coupled with scripture. That is certainly the NT model in the scriptures I have cited.


Yes, that is the New Testament model. It does not include a 'burning bosom' which convicts the believer and confirms what is taught.

Please don't respond by simply telling me that the "burning in the bosom" formulation doesn't work. I've already explained twice that that is not the LDS formulation for the discovery of spiritual truth; it is one of many ways.


Please address what I write, and not what you expect me to write.
_rcrocket

Re: vegas

Post by _rcrocket »

Fortigurn wrote:
We, too, believe that in large part conversion comes on the basis of the testimonies of believers -- coupled with scripture. That is certainly the NT model in the scriptures I have cited.


Yes, that is the New Testament model. It does not include a 'burning bosom' which convicts the believer and confirms what is taught.

Please don't respond by simply telling me that the "burning in the bosom" formulation doesn't work. I've already explained twice that that is not the LDS formulation for the discovery of spiritual truth; it is one of many ways.


Please address what I write, and not what you expect me to write.


I will try to address what you write.

I think I have said that the "burning bosom" is not the LDS formulation for learning truth; it is one of many, but not the only.

The LDS formulation is more like this: "[I]f you . . . exercise fervent prayer and faith in the sight of God always, he shall give you knowledge by His Holy Spirit, yea by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost. . . ." TPJS 138. The LDS formulation speaks of personal conviction by personal revelation by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus taught that his personal presence was actually an impediment to understanding, because the Holy Spirit was necessary to bear record of Him. John 16: 7 "It is for your good that I am going away." John 16:13: "But, when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth."

Note that Jesus doesn't say -- read the scriptures and you will learn of all things -- at least here in John 16.

So, I wonder how praying and receiving a witness from the Holy Spirit is contrary to the NT model.

In His Name,
rcrocket
_Fortigurn
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Re: vegas

Post by _Fortigurn »

rcrocket wrote:I think I have said that the "burning bosom" is not the LDS formulation for learning truth; it is one of many, but not the only.


Yes, I'm aware of that. But it's considered a critical formulation for discerning truth.

The LDS formulation is more like this: "[I]f you . . . exercise fervent prayer and faith in the sight of God always, he shall give you knowledge by His Holy Spirit, yea by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost. . . ." TPJS 138. The LDS formulation speaks of personal conviction by personal revelation by the Holy Spirit.


Yes, to discern truth. We do not find this in the Bible.

Jesus taught that his personal presence was actually an impediment to understanding, because the Holy Spirit was necessary to bear record of Him. John 16: 7 "It is for your good that I am going away." John 16:13: "But, when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth."


He doesn't say that his personal presence was an impediment to their understanding (and he actually spent 40 days after his resurrection teaching them in person).

Note that Jesus doesn't say -- read the scriptures and you will learn of all things -- at least here in John 16.


He doesn't talk about 'all things' at all. He speaks of being guided into all truth.

So, I wonder how praying and receiving a witness from the Holy Spirit is contrary to the NT model.


Because it's simply not in the New Testament. Not even in the passage you quote from John here. Christ is speaking directly to the apostles, and tells them that they would be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. Nothing about them praying and then being convicted by a 'burning bosom'. Nor do we find any such process in the conversion narratives in the New Testament. It's simply not there.
_Gazelam
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Fortigurn

Post by _Gazelam »

Please share with us then how you believe that the Holy Ghost leads if not by impressions and feeling.

Please share with us your view of how revelation comes.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Fortigurn
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Re: Fortigurn

Post by _Fortigurn »

Gazelam wrote:Please share with us then how you believe that the Holy Ghost leads if not by impressions and feeling.

Please share with us your view of how revelation comes.


I do not believe in personal revelation through the 'Holy Ghost'.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you were a Christian.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

I am a Christian.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Fortigurn wrote:I am a Christian.


I will make the assumption that you are a Born again Christian then, and so I will restrict my responce to you to the New Testament.

Acts 8:12-17 offers an excellent example of the Holy Ghost and how he is confirmed on an individual.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

As it was then, so is it today. After a person is Baptised in the name of Christ, a priesthood bearer places his hands on the head of the individual and says to them, "receive the Holy Ghost".

As Gods children it is our right to receive revelation from our Father in heaven to lead and direct us back to his presence. God being no respecter of persons and therefore pours out his spirit upon all those who show themselves obedient to the laws that entitles them to that companionship. The Spirit teaches a man, who has a listening ear for that still small voice, the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

1 Cor. 2:9-16
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The lessons the Holy Ghost has to teach is for those that are able to set aside the things of the world and honestly seek after the teachings of Christ. This has been the pattern from the beginning, Adam instructed his children in this, and My teachers have taught me the same.

Joseph Smith spoke on this subject to Brigham Young in a dream:
In February 1847 Joseph Smith appeared to Brigham Young in a dream and said: "Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord, and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach you how to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right."

Brigham Young, vision, Feb. 17, 1847, in Brigham Young Office Files, 1832–1878, Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah; spelling, punctuation, and capitalization modernized.


This is how the Holy Ghost works, and is the basis for most revelation. Revelation can also come by angels and also by the Lord himself appearing. But the Comforter and Revelator is the most common way that God speaks to man in an effort to lead and guide him back to his presence.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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