"WHERE ELSE COULD WE GO?.."

[_Sam Harris]

What does the relief society do?

Mostly gossip.

I couldn't stand Relief Society when I was a member, I just got tired of the flourescent smiles in the wards I attended, and the what seemed to be "worthiness competition". There were few genuine people in my first ward (they had the highest record of temple attendance, and 99.99999999% of them were from Utah, so there was a lot of pride in that), and when you come from "out of the box", and can't give an orthodox answer to any question given, it's hard. Not to mention all the purity talks. Some of us lost our "innocence" before we knew what a Mormon was, and that was very degrading for me. I was so ashamed of myself and my body.

Sometimes when we couldn't stand it, my friends and I would sit in the foyer and just talk, or I'd sit alone and study. Same thing with Sunday school.

[_Inconceivable]

The Village ticked me off royally, mainly because I was still struggling as an LDS when I saw it, and saw so much of my (and others') experiences within the church in it. I left the theater shaking my head and thinking, "that's just like the church".

Thanks for your perspective GIMR.

When "The Villiage" came out several years ago, I did not even occur to me the obvious and troubling parallels.

I recall when Bill and Hillary seiged the white house that she made that famous "It takes a village" speech as well. It frightened many of us that it was all about her definition of a "village", full of all the decadence of society.

That was the one and only year we made the mistake in enrolling our kids into a Mormon charter school to keep them "safe". It was like we ended up in a lead cave for a while just fearing all those shadows out there. Our kids regressed and became very close minded and judgemental of those on the outside for a time. Glad we snapped out of it.

Since that time (and previously) we have always had our children attend the public school system. There are so many reasons why it has been the better choice. If they are raised within the world, they develop life skills through comparison and contrast. They have a better chance of overcoming their fears of people from other walks of life and learn to respect them in spite of the differences. Not only that but they might even realize that we are all basically good.

[_Polygamy Porter]

The Village ticked me off royally, mainly because I was still struggling as an LDS when I saw it, and saw so much of my (and others') experiences within the church in it. I left the theater shaking my head and thinking, "that's just like the church".

There are parallels to all religion in that movie. I take it you believe in Satan? And you will pass this "pretend" fear down to your children, no?

So you traded one set of myths for another?

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi GIMR, missed ya! Nice to 'read' You again! You said:

The LDS church has no monopoly on youth programs, in fact, I would say that many of the mainstream Christian churches today are upping the ante on youth groups (starting very early, kindergarten age to teen), because they see that society is not always the safest place to leave your kids alone. My church has an amazing youth program, they have resources for the kids, every tuesday night the youth come out to church, they get taught, they play games, they get to know each other. This is for kids from about ages 11-18 (pastor feels that any younger, you need to be at home in bed). Sundays the kids are off having fun together and learning what we learn that day, but packaged differently. I once worked at a huge United Methodist megachurch (about 3,000 members) that had a place called kidzone, they had nurseries for infants, and resources for the parents for every age group up to about 14-15. I was in the room with the 2-year-olds (can't believe I got paid to have so much fun!), and they were taught too, a ten-minute lesson from "Baby Bible". All they did was learn about a good character trait from a Bible character (like David, for example), and they were given sheets to color for the rest of the time.

If someone really wants to raise their kids in a church environment outside the LDS church, all you need to do is hop churches on sunday, ask questions. If you don't, then trust yourself and do it on your own. Either way, the ultimate responsibility is on the parent. (Bold dded by RM)

Wise woman! We have church-hopped for several years and, as you, have found kid/youth programs equal to & better than LDS programs--depends a lot on the Ward size & human resources at hand. The "United Methodist Church" has a lot going for it: programs to cover most spiritual/social needs, great spirit in the one we attended, highly qualified Pastors, music folks, & a Black Woman Pastor, et al!

My only fault-find is they still teach an after-life, and salvation by the blood of Jesus. Albeit, in a less fundamentalist fashion. "Charity" is what we felt to be most obvious in their congregation. Anyone looking for a better-church, check it out...

"...got paid..." Now that says a lot too! No frazzled, compelled called-by-"God" folks manipulated to obey authority! That LDS 'peculiarity' is another that hopefully will soon be "inspired" into 'past-practices'. IMSCO, that change alone could not help but improve local operations--in most cases. Seems strange, the richest church, per capita, works with 'slave-labour'--so-to-speak :-) chosen by fiat. One cannot volunteer, or apply for Ward positions... Like, why???

"Parents" are the key to "love-at-home" and justice-in-society. Too often folks join churches, in good intent, thinking the church can fix their dysfunctions. Rarely the case. Good-families bring into the (LDS) church the things that make the church good. Do well functioning, perceptive, compassionate families need the/a church? Possibly as a social/community centre--as the LDS pretends to be, but isn't. The fact still has to be accepted that religion and morality are not one-and-the-same.

Turn churches into Community Centres then maybe what Jesus taught about how to live together in 'Harmony' ;-) might eventually come-to-pass. Teaching 'Religion', hasn't done all that well in that regard--up to this point in time... Warm regards, Roger

[_barrelomonkeys]

GIMR WROTE: I couldn't stand Relief Society when I was a member, I just got tired of the flourescent smiles in the wards I attended, and the what seemed to be "worthiness competition". There were few genuine people in my first ward (they had the highest record of temple attendance, and 99.99999999% of them were from Utah, so there was a lot of pride in that), and when you come from "out of the box", and can't give an orthodox answer to any question given, it's hard. Not to mention all the purity talks. Some of us lost our "innocence" before we knew what a Mormon was, and that was very degrading for me. I was so ashamed of myself and my body.

Sometimes when we couldn't stand it, my friends and I would sit in the foyer and just talk, or I'd sit alone and study. Same thing with Sunday school.

Sounds like that would be very difficult. You had purity talks as grown, adult women? Why?

[_beastie]

Sounds like that would be very difficult. You had purity talks as grown, adult women? Why?

Sexual chastity is a HUGE issue in Mormonism. Even married people are expected to be "chaste" in their sexual relations.

I think part of this has to do with what differentiates the Mormon deity from mainstream christianity - and that he God continues to be a sexual being, who has wives and reproduces with them. Now some "internet Mormons" protest that we don't really know that God has sex like we do, but certainly the founders of the LDS church thought he did.

For me, this was a real mind-trip, because, if God had sex, then there must be a way to have Holy Sex - you know, sex that you wouldn't be embarrassed for God to see. But what kind of sex is that, exactly?

In the past, the LDS church was very intrusive in the married bedroom, and actually sent ward leaders a statement saying oral sex in marriage was "taboo". Eventually, they retracted that and instructed bishops to not ask specifics about what married couples do in the bedroom. Instead the vague chaste question is asked, which is just confusing. Then add the Mormon ban on masturbation, which leads to fear to touch oneself, and the bedroom can just become a real hornet's nest for someone who really believes and really wants to be chaste, and has been taught that, even when you're married, some acts are still taboo.

And aside from that, Relief Society is not just for married women, but also for adult single women. So of course they have to be constantly reminded it is their duty to remain chaste.

It's my opinion that the reason fundamentalist religions obsess so much about their members' sex lives is due to their desire to CONTROL. If you can control someone's most private behavior, then you can control just about ANYTHING in their lives.

I don't mean to say that the leaders are, in some devious way, saying "let's hyperfocus on sex so we can control the members so they give us their money". No, I don't think it's a conscious deliberation at all. Rather, I think fundmentalist religions attract authoritarian personalities as their leaders, and this is a natural step for the authoritarian personality.

[_barrelomonkeys]

beastie,

What is the point of this? What do church leaders say is the point of this? I don't understand this at all.

[_Sam Harris]

The Village ticked me off royally, mainly because I was still struggling as an LDS when I saw it, and saw so much of my (and others') experiences within the church in it. I left the theater shaking my head and thinking, "that's just like the church".

There are parallels to all religion in that movie. I take it you believe in Satan? And you will pass this "pretend" fear down to your children, no?

So you traded one set of myths for another?

PP, what did I tell you about talking to everyone from the extreme uber-anti Mormon perspective? It's nasty, it causes folks to make snide jokes about people being molested, as well as peppering every sentence with expletives, despite the fact that one has been asked not to do this.

I do not believe in Satan the way you think I do. I am not a religionist. When you're ready to lay down the quips, jokes, and preconceptions, you can actually ask me what I believe. Assuming that people who have faith in something outside themselves are some breed of fool is not wise. You're not above or more intelligent just because you sneer at everything. A little maturity...

Thanks!

[_Sam Harris]

Hi GIMR, missed ya! Nice to 'read' You again! You said:

The LDS church has no monopoly on youth programs, in fact, I would say that many of the mainstream Christian churches today are upping the ante on youth groups (starting very early, kindergarten age to teen), because they see that society is not always the safest place to leave your kids alone. My church has an amazing youth program, they have resources for the kids, every tuesday night the youth come out to church, they get taught, they play games, they get to know each other. This is for kids from about ages 11-18 (pastor feels that any younger, you need to be at home in bed). Sundays the kids are off having fun together and learning what we learn that day, but packaged differently. I once worked at a huge United Methodist megachurch (about 3,000 members) that had a place called kidzone, they had nurseries for infants, and resources for the parents for every age group up to about 14-15. I was in the room with the 2-year-olds (can't believe I got paid to have so much fun!), and they were taught too, a ten-minute lesson from "Baby Bible". All they did was learn about a good character trait from a Bible character (like David, for example), and they were given sheets to color for the rest of the time.

If someone really wants to raise their kids in a church environment outside the LDS church, all you need to do is hop churches on sunday, ask questions. If you don't, then trust yourself and do it on your own. Either way, the ultimate responsibility is on the parent. (Bold dded by RM)

Wise woman! We have church-hopped for several years and, as you, have found kid/youth programs equal to & better than LDS programs--depends a lot on the Ward size & human resources at hand. The "United Methodist Church" has a lot going for it: programs to cover most spiritual/social needs, great spirit in the one we attended, highly qualified Pastors, music folks, & a Black Woman Pastor, et al!

My only fault-find is they still teach an after-life, and salvation by the blood of Jesus. Albeit, in a less fundamentalist fashion. "Charity" is what we felt to be most obvious in their congregation. Anyone looking for a better-church, check it out...

"...got paid..." Now that says a lot too! No frazzled, compelled called-by-"God" folks manipulated to obey authority! That LDS 'peculiarity' is another that hopefully will soon be "inspired" into 'past-practices'. IMSCO, that change alone could not help but improve local operations--in most cases. Seems strange, the richest church, per capita, works with 'slave-labour'--so-to-speak :-) chosen by fiat. One cannot volunteer, or apply for Ward positions... Like, why???

"Parents" are the key to "love-at-home" and justice-in-society. Too often folks join churches, in good intent, thinking the church can fix their dysfunctions. Rarely the case. Good-families bring into the (LDS) church the things that make the church good. Do well functioning, perceptive, compassionate families need the/a church? Possibly as a social/community centre--as the LDS pretends to be, but isn't. The fact still has to be accepted that religion and morality are not one-and-the-same.

Turn churches into Community Centres then maybe what Jesus taught about how to live together in 'Harmony' ;-) might eventually come-to-pass. Teaching 'Religion', hasn't done all that well in that regard--up to this point in time... Warm regards, Roger

Hey Roger, long time no read. Been preoccupied lately...

I joined the LDS church thinking it would solve all my problems, and as you said, this isn't the wisest thing to do. All I did was put my humanity under a microscope that really didn't appreciate it. I've often felt like I was born with a reject sticker on my forehead, but these days I just roll with it. I am who I am, and I'm comfortable with that. But from the TBM perspective, that's being "proud of your sin".

I was watching one of those Disney creations today (quiet saturday, sucky cable, nothing to do), and I was thinking about the mythology of the story. Good versus evil from a Buddhist perspective, legend of a warrior born ever 90 years. Humans respond to mythology in a positive way, I think, because it takes them away from the mundane and unpleasant. The problem we have is with assigning positive mythology to only one group of people, and having only one group of people in the "hero" role. That's the problem with religion, if you don't wall yourself off from something, then you won't be protected spiritually. But what's wrong with being out there sometimes?

It really bugs me the emphasis some people place on church. It's four walls with a roof, with some folks stuck inside. Until we learn to do as you said, make churches of all faiths more like community centers instead of country clubs, we're not going to make the swift progress we need as a society.

As far as getting paid to work in the nursery, I loved it so much. Those kids were so sweet. It was fun, and I really liked that atmosphere. I do miss it. Beats office politics.

[_Sam Harris]

PP, sometimes completely reading through a post and pausing to think about what you've read before you indulge in the jerk-knee reaction is helpful.

I think there is a lot of fear-based manipulation in Mormonism and also within fundamentalist Christianity. You're not a good religionist if you do certain things. I'm not a good Christian because I refuse to see homosexuals as d*** near animals. I'm not a good Christian because I want to not just read the English version of a Latin version of a Greek and Hebrew text, I want to get to the point where I can read those other three languages, and know a good bit about the cultures that the writers of the Bible lived in. Not only that, but I refuse to write off other faiths, regardless of what pastor or other people who "know the Bible" have to say. Memorization doesn't equate knowledge, in my book. I'm sorry.

What you believe in is your choice. Sneering at anyone who believes in a God is no better than Mormons who sneer at you for not being one. Pot, meet Kettle.