116 pages

[_Sethbag]

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the possibility that "magic rock" has been independently re-invented many times over; it's not as if it's not pretty obvious. :-)

Actually, Joseph Smith starring into a hat is actually very faith promoting. Just think of the Uncle Daleites on this board. Here we have Joseph Smith and Sidney in a 'fraud'. Sidney supposively writes the book and has Joseph Smith as front man. Both get together with Sidney's major work, the Book of Mormon, and decide to use the hat technique as a translation process. Sounds crazy doesn't it?

I would try to come up with a better solution to ensure the success of my written work. No, the hat technique sounds geniune to me. No one would invent such a crazy thing without it coming from god. Too much of a risk of having the book laughed at from the very start.

Why Me, you forget one thing. Joseph's "staring at a rock in the hat" trick had already been working for him, getting him gigs as a treasure finder. Notice how he never actually recovered any treasure? I think it's pretty obvious to most people that this was a fraud. But as far as being able to explain it to his potential audience, why not stick with what already has been shown to work?

I gotta say it man, any argument that relies on "that's just so crazy nobody would possibly come up with that unless it was from God" just doesn't withstand scrutiny. Have you ever listened to the Art Bell show on the radio? There are some pretty whacked out people out there, with some pretty whacked out ideas. Believing something must be from God because it's too whacked out for anyone to have presumed that a human would believe it if it were in fact invented, is just sheer naïvété. There are tons of people in this world believing the most outrageous crap.

Just look at all the New Age spirit energy crystal bullcrap. You've got people spending good coin on various crystals and whatnot under the assumption that these rocks will channel the earth's energy into their lives and whatnot.

[_Blixa]

As for hat trick, well...the lord uses the knowledge for that time period. Hence, the hat. Next point?

Uh, looking at a rock in a hat wasn't "the knowledge of that time period." That was not the way in which most people produced knowledge. While it was a recognized method of folk magic, it was a fringe behavior and not something that could by any stretch of the imagination be called a common method of 19thC knowledge acquisition, let alone the dominant mode.

[_Sethbag]

As for hat trick, well...the lord uses the knowledge for that time period. Hence, the hat. Next point?

Asked and answered, eh? Hardly. You know that the Lord uses the knowledge for a given time period exactly how? Because some charltan from a given time period told you so?

So, if the Lord reveals stuff to Gordon B. Hinckley today, do you suppose he would do it by email? Or would the Lord prove he's hip and send Gordon a text by phone?

"Hey, how R U? LOL! Start polygamy again. I explain l8r. CYA, LOL!"

[_Some Schmo]

"Hey, how R U? LOL! Start polygamy again. I explain l8r. CYA, LOL!"

ROTFLMAO

Very good. Cracked me right up.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Martin Harris also had a strong testimony of shakerism and James Strang.

According to a 1838 letter by Stephen Burnett, Martin Harris also publicly stated that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes[,] only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David[,] & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument [i.e., their testimony] for that reason, but were persuaded to do it ...."

A fuller extract of Burnett's letter can be found here:

http://www.irr.org/mit/marquardt-bom-appendix3.html

[_Blixa]

"Hey, how R U? LOL! Start polygamy again. I explain l8r. CYA, LOL!"

ROTFLMAO indeed.

[_beastie]

Why Me,

You’re being inconsistent. First you proclaim that the very oddity of the hat trick was proof of its divine origin to you.

I would try to come up with a better solution to ensure the success of my written work. No, the hat technique sounds geniune to me. No one would invent such a crazy thing without it coming from god. Too much of a risk of having the book laughed at from the very start.

When I demonstrated that the “hat trick” was actually part of the folk magic practices of Joseph Smith’ time period, you change your mind and say:

As for hat trick, well...the lord uses the knowledge for that time period. Hence, the hat. Next point?

Are you now saying that the “hat trick” was inspired of God in all those practioners of folk magic? I ask because Joseph Smith clearly didn’t make this up, he borrowed this – and many of his other practices – from the folk magic of the time period.

So were all those folks looking at a rock in a hat inspired of God and really finding buried treasure with the trick?

Martin Harris being a human being lived life the way it was lived in his day. However, Martin remained faithful to his testimony and conviction about the Book of Mormon. The people on this board who were once members and who are now critics prove my point. No one who believes that the LDS church is a fraud has stayed the course. Why would Martin be an exception to all of you? We humans are very predictable. Martin believed. Hence, Martin stayed the course.

Oh, who cares. We’ve already demonstrated Martin had the tendency to jump around from religion to religion, all the while proclaiming great faith in each. In addition to his obvious gullibility, the fact that people believe crazy things to the day they die is not evidence of the validity of the crazy thing. Do you really think Allah wanted Muslim terrorists to kill people by plowing planes into a building? No? Why aren’t you considering the strength of the terrorists’ convictions as evidence of the validity of their belief?

What makes the emphasis on the witnesses even odder is how fast Joseph was to call their characters into question when they left the church.

Joseph Smith said Dec 16, 1838, "Such characters as McLellin, John Witmer, David Witmer, Oliver Cowdry, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." History of the Church, Vol 3, p232

http://www.Bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[_Calculus Crusader]

If Martin Harris were alive today, he probably would have lost all of his money to a Nigerian advance fee scam.

[_Runtu]

If Martin Harris were alive today, he probably would have lost all of his money to a Nigerian advance fee scam.

Or sent it all to Benny Hinn.

[_Scottie]

I thought I saw fairies when I was a little kid--I still have very vivid visual memories of them, too. That doesn't mean I did, though. Interesting, too, that they looked just like the illustrations in turn-of-the-century children's books that I loved!

Apples to oranges. You apparently saw through your delusions. Harris never did. He died claiming to know.