Murdered Brother and a Fraud

[_charity]

As a sort of follow-on the the first post, there is a specific discrepancy in the Book of Mormon that may shed some light on things. It stands alone as what I see as a major error in the book, but when added to other peculiarities, I see a pattern emerging.

I'm interested in all of your thoughts.

In the Book of Ether, we're told that the writings given to the brother of Jared are not to be "seen and heard" until the "Lord glorifies his name in the flesh" when "Christ should show himself to the people."

Ether 3:21 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the time cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall treasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man.

22 And behold, when ye shall come unto me, ye shall write them and shall seal them up, that no one can interpret them; for ye shall write them in a language that they cannot be read.

Ether 4:1 And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people.

However, Moroni tells us that he "takes his account" and makes his abridgment from the plates which were "found by the people of Limhi":

Ether 1:2 And I take mine account from the twenty and four plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of Ether.

This is a chronological problem, the book is off by about 120 years or so, because when you look back to "people of Limhi" that Moroni took his account from, we find them in Mosiah 8 and Mosiah 21 - we're told of "Ammon" of the "plates" and "king Mosiah" translates them, about 120 years before Christ came, in violation of the admonition in Ether.

This problem stands alone, but I think there is more to it than first meets the eye.

The question I have is "why did Mosiah translate the plates early?" Could this be related to the name change from "Benjamin" to "Mosiah?" in Mosiah 21:28?

Has anyone ever wondered why it read Benjamin in the first place? Was that a simple error, or is there more?

Just curious to see if anyone else has considered these things.

Cosmo, this is really great. This is the first post that made me stretch a little. I went to the FAIR board, asked the question, and was pointed to a source. Here is the link.

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/display ... V3LnBocA==

The one sentence answer is that the record Mosiah translated is not the record (or the part of the record) which Ether said should be kept from the world. But that was a really good catch, and shows a good intellect in digging in and seeing, what appeared to be an inconsistency.

This is the reason why I am on this board, to learn something. And I really did. I appreciate this type of question. Thanks a bunch!

[_Sethbag]

I should point out that "ye" is most often used to mean the 2nd person plural, ie: "you all". So when Ammoron says "ye" killed my brother, he means "you all" killed my brother. Teancum was part of the Nephites, whom Ammoron was addressing, and it's plausible that Ammoron might not know which Nephite specifically had killed his bro. I don't see a problem with "ye" in this case in the Book of Mormon.

I like the Ether catch. Good one!

[_Sethbag]

By the way, I skimmed through that Valentin Arts article at FARMS, and I have to say: ROFL! Valentin did as good a job as any critic in pointing out the total hash Joseph Smith made of the whole sealed vision/interpreters/24 plates thing. He shows that the impossibility of the commonly-understood interpretation, that is, that it was first through the people of Limhi that the Jaredite records came into Nephite posession. Rather than recognize this impossibility as a problem, however, he just uses it as deductive proof that the Nephites must have had the sealed portion of the Brother of Jared's vision on a different set of plates, which they had earlier, and the discovery of which was not recorded in the Book of Mormon.

[_charity]

By the way, I skimmed through that Valentin Arts article at FARMS, and I have to say: ROFL! Valentin did as good a job as any critic in pointing out the total hash Joseph Smith made of the whole sealed vision/interpreters/24 plates thing. He shows that the impossibility of the commonly-understood interpretation, that is, that it was first through the people of Limhi that the Jaredite records came into Nephite posession. Rather than recognize this impossibility as a problem, however, he just uses it as deductive proof that the Nephites must have had the sealed portion of the Brother of Jared's vision on a different set of plates, which they had earlier, and the discovery of which was not recorded in the Book of Mormon.

Obviously, you should have done more than "skim."

[Guest]

The Lamanites thought they had the right of rulership through lineage, the Nephites believed they had the right to rule through the blessing of God as given by Lehi in the beg. of 2 Nephi. The quarrel was over power; each side viewed the other side as lying. Moroni believed the Lamanite "king" knew better, though.

It goes further back than 2 Nephi, doesn't it?

In 2 Nephi, it says this:

2 Nephi 1:27 And it must needs be that the power of God must be with him, even unto his commanding you that ye must obey. But behold, it was not he, but it was the Spirit of the Lord which was in him, which opened his mouth to utterance that he could not shut it.

28 And now my son, Laman, and also Lemuel and Sam, and also my sons who are the sons of Ishmael, behold, if ye will hearken unto the voice of Nephi ye shall not perish. And if ye will hearken unto him I leave unto you a blessing, yea, even my first blessing.

It was the "spirit" within him, and his obedience to that spirit which earned him that blessing.

Including, of course, the actions foreshadowed here:

1 Nephi 4:5 And it was by night; and I caused that they should hide themselves without the walls. And after they had hid themselves, I, Nephi, crept into the city and went forth towards the house of Laban.

6 And I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do.

7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine.

8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.

9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

So the blessings begin with the killing of a man named Laban and "Nephi" acquiring the plates the man had.

Could this be what "Ammoron" protests?

[_cosmo junction]

I should point out that "ye" is most often used to mean the 2nd person plural, ie: "you all". So when Ammoron says "ye" killed my brother, he means "you all" killed my brother. Teancum was part of the Nephites, whom Ammoron was addressing, and it's plausible that Ammoron might not know which Nephite specifically had killed his bro. I don't see a problem with "ye" in this case in the Book of Mormon.

I like the Ether catch. Good one!

Thanks.

I've been working on a theory for quite some time now based on this discrepancy and what is found in D&C 104.

[_cosmo junction]

I should point out that "ye" is most often used to mean the 2nd person plural, ie: "you all". So when Ammoron says "ye" killed my brother, he means "you all" killed my brother. Teancum was part of the Nephites, whom Ammoron was addressing, and it's plausible that Ammoron might not know which Nephite specifically had killed his bro. I don't see a problem with "ye" in this case in the Book of Mormon.

This is a plausible answer, I'll give you that.

Actually you've hit directly on part of my point, Ammoron didn't know who killed his brother, he only knew that it was one of the group associated with Moroni.

The man's name, in the Book of Mormon, was Teancum.

I think a comparison of Teancum with Seantum might interest you.

The identification of Seantum as the one who killed the brother of Seezoram is when Nephi is first called a prophet by some. See Helaman chapter 9.

Interesting, huh?

[_cosmo junction]

Cosmo, this is really great. This is the first post that made me stretch a little. I went to the FAIR board, asked the question, and was pointed to a source. Here is the link.

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/display ... V3LnBocA==

The one sentence answer is that the record Mosiah translated is not the record (or the part of the record) which Ether said should be kept from the world. But that was a really good catch, and shows a good intellect in digging in and seeing, what appeared to be an inconsistency.

This is the reason why I am on this board, to learn something. And I really did. I appreciate this type of question. Thanks a bunch!

You're welcome.

The author of that paper refers to an "unabridged" copy of the Book of Ether.

I happen to agree with him, that there is an unabridged copy of the "plates of Ether."

But it's found beginning in Mosiah chapter 9 and is the story of Zeniff and Abinadi.

[_cosmo junction]

I'm fascinated by the similarities between what Moroni next does and the story of Laban at the beginning of the Book of Mormon:

Alma 55:5 And it came to pass that they found one, whose name was Laman; and he was one of the servants of the king who was murdered by Amalickiah.

6 Now Moroni caused that Laman and a small number of his men should go forth unto the guards who were over the Nephites.

7 Now the Nephites were guarded in the city of Gid; therefore Moroni appointed Laman and caused that a small number of men should go with him.

8 And when it was evening Laman went to the guards who were over the Nephites, and behold, they saw him coming and they hailed him; but he saith unto them: Fear not; behold, I am a Lamanite. Behold, we have escaped from the Nephites, and they sleep; and behold we have taken of their wine and brought with us.

9 Now when the Lamanites heard these words they received him with joy; and they said unto him: Give us of your wine, that we may drink; we are glad that ye have thus taken wine with you for we are weary.

10 But Laman said unto them: Let us keep of our wine till we go against the Nephites to battle. But this saying only made them more desirous to drink of the wine;

11 For, said they: We are weary, therefore let us take of the wine, and by and by we shall receive wine for our rations, which will strengthen us to go against the Nephites.

12 And Laman said unto them: You may do according to your desires.

13 And it came to pass that they did take of the wine freely; and it was pleasant to their taste, therefore they took of it more freely; and it was strong, having been prepared in its strength.

14 And it came to pass they did drink and were merry, and by and by they were all drunken.

15 And now when Laman and his men saw that they were all drunken, and were in a deep sleep, they returned to Moroni and told him all the things that had happened.

16 And now this was according to the design of Moroni. And Moroni had prepared his men with weapons of war; and he went to the city Gid, while the Lamanites were in a deep sleep and drunken, and cast in weapons of war unto the prisoners, insomuch that they were all armed;

17 Yea, even to their women, and all those of their children, as many as were able to use a weapon of war, when Moroni had armed all those prisoners; and all those things were done in a profound silence.

18 But had they awakened the Lamanites, behold they were drunken and the Nephites could have slain them.

19 But behold, this was not the desire of Moroni; he did not delight in murder or bloodshed, but he delighted in the saving of his people from destruction; and for this cause he might not bring upon him injustice, he would not fall upon the Lamanites and destroy them in their drunkenness.

It's almost like he's reminding Ammoron of something - the blessings that were first given to Nephi are based on a similar story, except in the first story, Laban gets killed and in this one, no one does.

He's letting him know he knows the story. So, the reference to a fraud is even more interesting in light of this story.

But no one gets killed, no one is alerted. The fraud remains hidden.

[_ludwigm]

...
In the Book of Ether, we're told that the writings given to the brother of Jared
...

One can found "brother of Jared" in the Book of Ether 46 times.
Brother of Jared has no name.

Do You know he was MAHONRI MORIANCUMER ?
Nota bene: at that, Old Testament times, every name had meaning. (In all languages, not only in hebrew.)
What is the meaning of this name?
And what are the meaning of Book of Mormon names which are not found in Old Testament?

___ Ludwig from Hungary