Charity, how is LDS right and FLDS, Strangites, RLDS, wrong?

[_harmony]

Ok. I am sure you can apololgize to Joseph when you see him in the Celestial Kingdom.

Wherever Joseph is, I'm not going, charity. Personally, I believe he's where God puts all liars of his magnitude. Not every liar puts words into God's mouth, but Joseph is a special case.

[_beastie]

Harmony is actually on firm ground in her statement. In fact, if I were still a theist, I would agree with her, although I would probably not associate with the LDS church.

Harmony said:

No, the only thing I accept regarding Joseph being a prophet is that somehow he brought forth the Book of Mormon. I am required to believe the gospel was restored.I am not required to believe the man who did it was a prophet when he died. I am of the opinion that he lost whatever part of the prophet mantle he had the instant he got into bed with Fanny (that would be around 1831). Anthing that comes after that is suspect. And there's a lot that comes after that.

In the original Book of Commandments, Chapter 10 said this:

“And he [Joseph Smith, Jr.] has a gift to translate the book [of Mormon], and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift.”

It was later changed, without comment or explanation, to this:

“And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other giftuntil my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished.”

- Doctrine and Covenants, Ch. 5, verse 4

This changed occurred before 1835, because the 1835 version shows the changed verse.

I have had many discussions with apologists about this revision, which is, in my opinion, hugely significant. They assure me that the meaning of the verse was unchanged, and the changed just "clarified" it.

Baloney.

The meaning of the original verse is clear. God has given Joseph Smith one gift, and one gift only. That was the gift to translate the Book of Mormon. He was not to pretend that he had been given any other gift.

Suddenly, it's not the ONLY gift, just the FIRST.

in my opinion, it is ridiculous to claim that the meaning of the verse was not fundamentally changed.

Even if one believes that God called Joseph Smith to translate the Book of Mormon somehow, there is good evidence to conclude that he began to usurp more authority than God had ever intended.

[_charity]

Ok. I am sure you can apololgize to Joseph when you see him in the Celestial Kingdom.

Wherever Joseph is, I'm not going, charity. Personally, I believe he's where God puts all liars of his magnitude. Not every liar puts words into God's mouth, but Joseph is a special case.

Harmony, dear girl, I sincerely hope you are wrong. Because you won't want to be where Joseph isn't. There is still time to repent.

[_Yoda]

My opinion only? I am glad to share Joseph Smith's "opinion." Harmony, you have said you are LDS. Then as a Saint, you believe that Joseph was a prophet. You accept his teachings on various gospel subjects.

No, the only thing I accept regarding Joseph being a prophet is that somehow he brought forth the Book of Mormon. I am required to believe the gospel was restored.I am not required to believe the man who did it was a prophet when he died. I am of the opinion that he lost whatever part of the prophet mantle he had the instant he got into bed with Fanny (that would be around 1831). Anthing that comes after that is suspect. And there's a lot that comes after that.

The canon is the only authority I recognize. I realize that is a problem for you and other apologists, but I am on firm ground there, since, when all's said and done, the canon is the only authority there is. When a leader, even Joseph Smith, disagrees with the canon, the leader is wrong.

Or you are no longer a Saint, except maybe in name. I don't know why you would want to continue to maintain an affiliation with an organization you no longer believe in. I know I wouldn't.

My TR is current. My tithing is current. I hold two callings and take the sacrament weekly with a clear conscience. What you would do is of little to no interest to me, since you don't wear my skin and you aren't loved by the people who love me.

Ok. I am sure you can apololgize to Joseph when you see him in the Celestial Kingdom.

**Snickers***

Oh, I'm sure Harmony will do that. And right after she apologizes, she's going to ask to be one of his wives!

And if you believe that...there's a nice piece of swamp land I would like to sell you.

;)

[_Runtu]

Harmony, dear girl, I sincerely hope you are wrong. Because you won't want to be where Joseph isn't. There is still time to repent.

Well, I figure if God wanted me to believe in a prophet, he wouldn't have made him look like a lecherous fraud.

[_harmony]

Ok. I am sure you can apololgize to Joseph when you see him in the Celestial Kingdom.

Wherever Joseph is, I'm not going, charity. Personally, I believe he's where God puts all liars of his magnitude. Not every liar puts words into God's mouth, but Joseph is a special case.

Harmony, dear girl, I sincerely hope you are wrong. Because you won't want to be where Joseph isn't. There is still time to repent.

I repent every day, charity. I'm a firm believer in the value of repentence. What I don't repent of, though, is my feelings about Joseph. I do not want to be where he is. If he's in the CK, I don't want to go there. It's that simple.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

My opinion only? I am glad to share Joseph Smith's "opinion." Harmony, you have said you are LDS. Then as a Saint, you believe that Joseph was a prophet. You accept his teachings on various gospel subjects.

Or you are no longer a Saint, except maybe in name. I don't know why you would want to continue to maintain an affiliation with an organization you no longer believe in. I know I wouldn't.

How can a woman have degrees in psychology and absolutely no comprehension of human nature? Because Mormonism leaves no room for understanding of human nature. The only point of reference a TBM has is whether someone accepts and lives the gospel like you believe they should (God v. Satan). Your education is wasted because you've because you've crammed it all into the Mormon box, refusing to learn anything new. Why does Harmony continue to affiliate with Mormonism? Because, unlike you, she is a multi-faceted human being. Why can't you, Charity, understand why Harmony makes choices that you personally wouldn't? Because you are one-dimensional.

[_Polygamy Porter]

My opinion only? I am glad to share Joseph Smith's "opinion." Harmony, you have said you are LDS. Then as a Saint, you believe that Joseph was a prophet. You accept his teachings on various gospel subjects.

No, the only thing I accept regarding Joseph being a prophet is that somehow he brought forth the Book of Mormon. I am required to believe the gospel was restored.I am not required to believe the man who did it was a prophet when he died. I am of the opinion that he lost whatever part of the prophet mantle he had the instant he got into bed with Fanny (that would be around 1831). Anthing that comes after that is suspect. And there's a lot that comes after that.

The canon is the only authority I recognize. I realize that is a problem for you and other apologists, but I am on firm ground there, since, when all's said and done, the canon is the only authority there is. When a leader, even Joseph Smith, disagrees with the canon, the leader is wrong.

Or you are no longer a Saint, except maybe in name. I don't know why you would want to continue to maintain an affiliation with an organization you no longer believe in. I know I wouldn't.

My TR is current. My tithing is current. I hold two callings and take the sacrament weekly with a clear conscience. What you would do is of little to no interest to me, since you don't wear my skin and you aren't loved by the people who love me.

Ok. I am sure you can apololgize to Joseph when you see him in the Celestial Kingdom.

Sweet, a cat fight between the older kitties!

My good god damn harmony, listen to yourself. You DOUBT everything after old Joe rolled Fanny in the hay. YET, you are a TR holder... eeehhhh heeemmm? The whole temple dealie came about well after old Joe getting some little Fanny.

Charity, fer chrisssakes get some help, get a frigging grip in reality.

[_harmony]

Sweet, a cat fight between the older kitties!

Older? Darlin', I earned this white hair! (well, and it's genetic too, since Daddy had white hair when he turned 25).

My good god damn harmony, listen to yourself. You DOUBT everything after old Joe rolled Fanny in the hay. YET, you are a TR holder... eeehhhh heeemmm? The whole temple dealie came about well after old Joe getting some little Fanny.

So? I'm sure you have a point in there somewhere, PP. The part that's important to me came BEFORE Fanny.

[_Yoda]

My good god damn harmony, listen to yourself. You DOUBT everything after old Joe rolled Fanny in the hay. YET, you are a TR holder... eeehhhh heeemmm? The whole temple dealie came about well after old Joe getting some little Fanny.

So? I'm sure you have a point in there somewhere, PP. The part that's important to me came BEFORE Fanny.

I think what PP is speaking of is the concept that the entire temple ceremony was created by Joseph Smith as a means to legitimize his infidelities. And, if you are of the belief that Joseph's mantle as a prophet fell after the situation with Fanny, then there would be no need for you to carry a temple recommend, because the temple ceremony as a whole is merely a scam.