Homosexuality, British study finds...

[_BishopRic]

BishopRic

Good scientists understand homosexuality as biological, not a choice, so how could it be "a sin?"

On what body of research do you base the above assertion, Bish?

Jersey Girl

There is much in the literature (a simple google search will give you loads of recent research). But you must look at the sponsor of the studies...almost all of the "anti-gay" research is sponsored by religious groups.

One link that is good and surprising to some is from our own BYU professor Bradshaw:

http://newsnet.BYU.edu/story.cfm/49488

Enjoy!

[_the road to hana]

Now that credible studies have been accepted by an increasing number of folks--in the Christianized Western world--Spong is dismayed by the reluctance of others (churches in particular) to accept new findings.

He lays responsibility for the retardence of new information, generally speaking, at the feet of leaders who display incompetance by their predisposition to 'follow' old policies founded on ignorance, rather than to 'lead'. Unfolding knowledge of Homosexuality as a viable sexual orientation is denied at a cost to the whole of humanity.

Roger, I haven't read the entire report (can't seem to access it), but it's not clear to me what Spong is advocating.

Is he specifically talking about ordination? Ordination to a particular office, like bishop? Or simply inclusion and acceptance?

It seems to me that throughout Christianity there has been a long history of gay men (if not women) in the priesthood, although in some of those instances they were part of a tradition that was celibate, so whether they were gay or straight was really moot.

As I understand it, it wasn't even so much that Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson was gay that caused so much controversy within the church; it was that he was in a relationship.

So it's not clear to me what Spong is advocating. More openness about what already exists? More tolerance? As I said in a previous post, it appears to me that various Christian denominations have gone to certain lengths in recent years to address this. The splintering seems to be happening over ordination.

[_Trevor]

God never said being left handed was a sin. He did say that about homosexual behavior.

Correction: you believe in a being called God, whom you believe communicated with people through a collection of ancient texts put together by scholars living in the Roman Empire. In this collection of texts, some of the human authors claimed that homosexuality is a sin. You believe this is the same thing as an actual being you call God telling people homosexuality is a sin. For those of us who have doubts on any one of these points (and there is plenty of room for doubt), we may reasonably disagree with you on any one of those points.

[_BishopRic]

God never said being left handed was a sin. He did say that about homosexual behavior.

Correction: you believe in a being called God, whom you believe communicated with people through a collection of ancient texts put together by scholars living in the Roman Empire. In this collection of texts, some of the human authors claimed that homosexuality is a sin. You believe this is the same thing as an actual being you call God telling people homosexuality is a sin. For those of us who have doubts on any one of these points (and there is plenty of room for doubt), we may reasonably disagree with you on any one of those points.

Yes...it's a little bit like the "whisper around the circle" game. The last person usually says something completely different than the first. Then you add in the fact that it seems "God" always tells these guys something critically important to humanity in private! Sometimes in a dream where it would be hard to distinguish between a real conversation and the weird things we dream about, sometimes from a burning bush, etc...but if the conversations really took place, you'd expect the message to be consistent and non-contradictory. Since they're not, I can't imagine that God would hold it against us for using logic and reason to be skeptical about anybody that claims to have had that important conversation...

Then there's the "burning of the bosom" thing...don't get me started!

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi OTRTH, you asked:

So it's not clear to me what Spong is advocating. More openness about what already exists? More tolerance? As I said in a previous post, it appears to me that various Christian denominations have gone to certain lengths in recent years to address this. The splintering seems to be happening over ordination.

Yes, more openness. Yes, more tolerance. Yes, more acceptance of Gay clerics. Spong was one of the first Episcopalian Bishops to ordain a Gay man. And to have a female Cleric in his Charge.

Try accessing his site without including the little < > things, if you did. There is also a great forum there. I hope that helps. Spong has also written some GOOD books you might enjoy: "Sins of Scripture" & his latest is "Jesus For the Non-Religious" (I think?) Warm regards, Roger

[_Roger Morrison]

Bishop, thanks for the BYU piece. Very encouraging. Will be copied, pasted & sent... Warm regards, Roger

[_the road to hana]

Spong was one of the first Episcopalian Bishops to ordain a Gay man.

Somehow, I doubt that. An openly gay man, maybe. But as long as people have been ordaining priests, there have been gay priests (a fact no less true in the LDS tradition).

[_Trevor]

Yes...it's a little bit like the "whisper around the circle" game. The last person usually says something completely different than the first. Then you add in the fact that it seems "God" always tells these guys something critically important to humanity in private! Sometimes in a dream where it would be hard to distinguish between a real conversation and the weird things we dream about, sometimes from a burning bush, etc...but if the conversations really took place, you'd expect the message to be consistent and non-contradictory. Since they're not, I can't imagine that God would hold it against us for using logic and reason to be skeptical about anybody that claims to have had that important conversation...

Then there's the "burning of the bosom" thing...don't get me started!

Very much so!

[_Roger Morrison]

Spong was one of the first Episcopalian Bishops to ordain a Gay man.

Somehow, I doubt that. An openly gay man, maybe. But as long as people have been ordaining priests, there have been gay priests (a fact no less true in the LDS tradition).

You are 'doubtlessy' correct ;-) Speaking LDS, while i was BP, two position-holders in our Branch came out of the closet. As well as others in the District. Bradshaw's lecture is interesting in respect of its origin... Hope in Zion?? Roger

[_Gazelam]

Leviticus 20:13

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Perhaps after Christ came, we arent supposed to kill them anymore, but the fact that it is an abomination hasnt changed.