Ihearya wrote:Read the quote. I said SOMEONE not YOU personally. I would have no clue who you are. Don't take me wrong. I have respect for your views. If you hated us, you wouldn't be here reading our views or mine anyway. There is a difference between disagreeing with the Church or its doctrine and (attacking, defaming and lying about it). If you did, you'd be an enemy of the Church and IF the Church is true, you'd be fighting against the Church of Christ. If the Church isn't true and 13 million people are just living in fantasy land, then I propose that those who fight against us provide all 13 Million of us with something better to join, with better doctrines, set up and a better plan of action for our exhaltation.
Do you have such a plan to rescue 13M lost Mormons?
(my bold)
So I'm wondering why people need something to replace Mormonism (or any religion they may leave). Isn't "no religion" as good an alternative to "any religion"?
I know I should post a more substantial thought...but in my own spiritual journey [from Non-Denominational Christian to Deist to Atheist now] I never could make myself swallow another form of believe (no matter how similar to the form I previously held).
(In the Nietszchian sense I would think that anyone who jumps from one form of religion to another is a form of weak nihilism where people can't deal with their realization of the "Death of God" [the Death of God in the Nietzschian sense, not as in a literal death of God] and thus attempt to fill the void with another religion)
Just a thought...
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
Two thirds, of that thirteen million, are not active and so have already replaced Mormonism with a new world view or a new religion. Isn't it surprising that there is such alarm over the idea of a replacement for the church's time slot in their lives? Much of the time the church is just traded in for reality. A reality that includes more time for the family, rather than the children developing testimonies of Joseph Smith and the restoration.
Living as a Mormon has got to be one of the best ways to experience upon exit, that if a supreme being exists, she is not 'brand' specific.
I don't expect to see same-sex marriage in Utah within my lifetime. - Scott Lloyd, Oct 23 2013
Ihearya wrote:Read the quote. I said SOMEONE not YOU personally. I would have no clue who you are. Don't take me wrong. I have respect for your views. If you hated us, you wouldn't be here reading our views or mine anyway. There is a difference between disagreeing with the Church or its doctrine and (attacking, defaming and lying about it). If you did, you'd be an enemy of the Church and IF the Church is true, you'd be fighting against the Church of Christ. If the Church isn't true and 13 million people are just living in fantasy land, then I propose that those who fight against us provide all 13 Million of us with something better to join, with better doctrines, set up and a better plan of action for our exhaltation.
Do you have such a plan to rescue 13M lost Mormons?
(my bold)
I haven't read that entire thread, but aren't there people over there who do just that? I mean, aren't there people over there of other faiths who try to (gently) share their faith without violating board rules? Not only are they constrained from fully doing that by board rules, but in some cases they come from religions that don't strong arm people into conversion in the same way that Mormonism does. I would think if they got too heavy handed over there they'd be shown the door. Which is why the gentler souls, like rhinomelon, are still there (at least for now).
If Ihearya's looking for an alternative, an LDS board isn't the place to find it.
So I'm wondering why people need something to replace Mormonism (or any religion they may leave). Isn't "no religion" as good an alternative to "any religion"?
I know I should post a more substantial thought...but in my own spiritual journey [from Non-Denominational Christian to Deist to Atheist now] I never could make myself swallow another form of believe (no matter how similar to the form I previously held).
Your experience is a common one with people leaving Mormonism. Even Juliann has professed that if she left the church she'd likely become atheist. Why is that, specifically? Must have something to do with the programming.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
If the Church isn't true and 13 million people are just living in fantasy land, then I propose that those who fight against us provide all 13 Million of us with something better to join, with better doctrines, set up and a better plan of action for our exhaltation.
This betrays an unannounced need or desire for exaltation by the person asking the question - any fantasy will do so long as it produces the desired end-state of exaltation.
It doesn't matter if it's true, so long as it produces the desired end-state.
If the Church isn't true and 13 million people are just living in fantasy land, then I propose that those who fight against us provide all 13 Million of us with something better to join, with better doctrines, set up and a better plan of action for our exhaltation.
This betrays an unannounced need or desire for exaltation by the person asking the question - any fantasy will do so long as it produces the desired end-state of exaltation.
It doesn't matter if it's true, so long as it produces the desired end-state.
I'd agree, but modify your statement as follows:
Any fantasy will do so long as it appears to produce the desired end-state of exaltation.
It doesn't matter if it's true, so long as it seems to produce the desired end-state.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
the road to hana wrote:I haven't read that entire thread, but aren't there people over there who do just that? I mean, aren't there people over there of other faiths who try to (gently) share their faith without violating board rules? Not only are they constrained from fully doing that by board rules, but in some cases they come from religions that don't strong arm people into conversion in the same way that Mormonism does. I would think if they got too heavy handed over there they'd be shown the door. Which is why the gentler souls, like rhinomelon, are still there (at least for now).
If Ihearya's looking for an alternative, an LDS board isn't the place to find it.
I think Ihearya is an LDS and was trying to make a point about tearing down faith, namely that if you're going to criticize Mormonism and attempt to destroy a person's faith in Mormonism you need to provide something to replace Mormonism in their life. I'm calling it a fallacy that people need some "thing" (organized religion/belief system) in the first place, and could (should?) get along without it.
Last edited by Anonymous on Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
When someone's whole life is immersed in the LDS church, I observe that there are those who, after disbelief feel an emptiness of sorts.
First, often their whole support system is completely gone.
All the friends disappear.
Family and loved ones struggle.
Sometimes if boundaries and rules are taken away, folks need to sort out what really is healthy and/or hurtful to their lives and the lives of loved ones, even to society and the world. It may take some time.
And, sometimes, the non-believer doesn't know what is or is not true anymore. What they once believed, is no longer considered true and in this state there is often confusion, even chaos, depression, or sorrow as one attempts to figure out what is reality.
My point is for some folks, I do think there is a need to replace the LDS church in a sense. I do NOT however think Mormonism needs to be replaced by another religion.
:-)
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
the road to hana wrote:I haven't read that entire thread, but aren't there people over there who do just that? I mean, aren't there people over there of other faiths who try to (gently) share their faith without violating board rules? Not only are they constrained from fully doing that by board rules, but in some cases they come from religions that don't strong arm people into conversion in the same way that Mormonism does. I would think if they got too heavy handed over there they'd be shown the door. Which is why the gentler souls, like rhinomelon, are still there (at least for now).
If Ihearya's looking for an alternative, an LDS board isn't the place to find it.
I think Ihearya is an LDS and was trying to make a point about tearing down faith, namely that if you're going to criticize Mormonism and attempt to destroy a person's faith in Mormonism you need to provide something to replace Mormonism in their life. I'm calling it a fallacy that people need some "thing" (organized religion/belief system) in the first place, and could (should?) get along without it.
I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying that in the context of that board, expecting anyone to come over there to try to present an alternative isn't very realistic.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
the road to hana wrote:Your experience is a common one with people leaving Mormonism. Even Juliann has professed that if she left the church she'd likely become atheist. Why is that, specifically? Must have something to do with the programming.
You bring up some excellent points here.
Mormons are taught that it is either all or nothing. Juliann would certainly become an atheist (and altogether miserable) because the church has told her that if it is not true, there is no God and there really is no point to life either. It means that after she rejects the church she has still fallen for the biggest lie.
I'm beginning to see that is was a lie taught by the church that I must replace the emptyness with religeon.
But it has taken time to realize these things came form them. It takes a great deal of time and patience sifting through the rubble of clay and iron. I'm not done yet. That's why I'm here.