Which way did they go Joe?

[_LCD2YOU]

Howdy all,


First, let me say I am not a current nor have I ever been a Mormon. I am now an agnostic, formerly Roman Catholic, guy who lived and went to school in Utah until my escape in 1999.

But enough about me. Here's my question.


If I remember correctly, Lehi and his family left the Middle East off of the Arabian Penninsula. Now did they go south along the East African Coast (by the islands and their capitol which whose names sound so suspicious like that which could be used by a young, over imaginative boy)? That would have led them around the Cape of Good Hope (misnamed, it should be "Good Luck") dodging ice bergs. Then as they head north along the west coast of Africa, when did they turn west? What about the storms the Atlantic is known for? Now which is the most likely point they would be landing in the Americas from that direction? My money says it would have most likely have been at what is now the coast of Brazil and the Amazon Rainforest or the many islands in the Carribean Sea.

However, they could have gone another way, east. For them to go east from the Arabian Penninsula Lehi and family would travel along the coasts of what is now Iran and India. They would have passed close to the home of the Persians and their culture. Or would they have taken the strait route through the Middle on the Indian Ocean? Either way, eventually they would still wind up going through the Indonesian Archipelago. Then where? Due east through the South Pacific winding up somewhere on the west coast of South America after travelling almost 1/2 the Earth's circumfrence in ships that were almost certainly used for quick trips around the calm waters of the Red Sea or off the eastern shores of the Mediterranean? Or did they go North up and around the western edge of the Pacific, skirting the Bering sea and then down along the western side of North America?

Seems to me either trip would have been a story worthy of telling.

Or is there nothing because while possessing an active imagination, the young Joseph Smith was unable to gather information on those civilizations? It would seem obvious that in their travels, Lehi and family would have seen some truly amazing things. For a desert people who are moving through a tropical rain forests would have been a true shock to the system. Just describing the miracles required moving 7th Century BCE coastal ships through the treacherous waters that Lehi and company would have to cross would be an entire volume. There is nothing in the Book of Mormon about any civilization Lehi and company would have met along the way. I guess Joseph can't write about something he has no clue about.

One other thing, the map of the East Coast of Africa which shows the Comorah(sp?) Islands and the city "Moroni" was pubplished in 1808. Was Joe Sr. a merchant of sorts? As for "upstate New York" being a reason why Joseph Jr. would not have been exposed to sea charts there would have been many ships form the Atlantic via the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Erie Canal (completed 1825) would have been a source for a young man to see that part of the sea and dream.


Peace

[_charity]

Howdy all,


First, let me say I am not a current nor have I ever been a Mormon. I am now an agnostic, formerly Roman Catholic, guy who lived and went to school in Utah until my escape in 1999.

But enough about me. Here's my question.


If I remember correctly, Lehi and his family left the Middle East off of the Arabian Penninsula. Now did they go south along the East African Coast (by the islands and their capitol which whose names sound so suspicious like that which could be used by a young, over imaginative boy)? That would have led them around the Cape of Good Hope (misnamed, it should be "Good Luck") dodging ice bergs. Then as they head north along the west coast of Africa, when did they turn west? What about the storms the Atlantic is known for? Now which is the most likely point they would be landing in the Americas from that direction? My money says it would have most likely have been at what is now the coast of Brazil and the Amazon Rainforest or the many islands in the Carribean Sea.

However, they could have gone another way, east. For them to go east from the Arabian Penninsula Lehi and family would travel along the coasts of what is now Iran and India. They would have passed close to the home of the Persians and their culture. Or would they have taken the strait route through the Middle on the Indian Ocean? Either way, eventually they would still wind up going through the Indonesian Archipelago. Then where? Due east through the South Pacific winding up somewhere on the west coast of South America after travelling almost 1/2 the Earth's circumfrence in ships that were almost certainly used for quick trips around the calm waters of the Red Sea or off the eastern shores of the Mediterranean? Or did they go North up and around the western edge of the Pacific, skirting the Bering sea and then down along the western side of North America?

Seems to me either trip would have been a story worthy of telling.

Or is there nothing because while possessing an active imagination, the young Joseph Smith was unable to gather information on those civilizations? It would seem obvious that in their travels, Lehi and family would have seen some truly amazing things. For a desert people who are moving through a tropical rain forests would have been a true shock to the system. Just describing the miracles required moving 7th Century BCE coastal ships through the treacherous waters that Lehi and company would have to cross would be an entire volume. There is nothing in the Book of Mormon about any civilization Lehi and company would have met along the way. I guess Joseph can't write about something he has no clue about.

One other thing, the map of the East Coast of Africa which shows the Comorah(sp?) Islands and the city "Moroni" was pubplished in 1808. Was Joe Sr. a merchant of sorts? As for "upstate New York" being a reason why Joseph Jr. would not have been exposed to sea charts there would have been many ships form the Atlantic via the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Erie Canal (completed 1825) would have been a source for a young man to see that part of the sea and dream.


Peace

It really doesn't make much sense to speculate when the record is silent. We don't know which way the Lehite party went on the ship. The record simply doesn't say. They get on the ship, there is a storm, and 1 Nephi 18: 23 states "And it came to pass that after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land." That's all.

About Comoros and Moroni, you can speculate on that all you want. Critics are always suggesting Joseph could have some book or map or something or other. But to have every book, map, pamphlet, etc. that has been suggested, the Smith Family Library would have been pretty extensive.

[_LCD2YOU]

It really doesn't make much sense to speculate when the record is silent. We don't know which way the Lehite party went on the ship. The record simply doesn't say.

Au contraire mon amee. It makes every difference.

See, the standard apologetic retort about their belief that the Book of Mormon is true can be summed up in this phrase, "How can a farm boy from upstate NY get it right?"

The fact is he got nothing right now did he? If he was actually getting things right then the Book of Mormon would include little things like that, right?

No, the sad fact is that Joseph saw a map, his imagination went wild and the rest is history. Joseph didn't get anything right even then.

Besides all FAIR and FARMS do is speculate. Are you saying that they are

They get on the ship, there is a storm, and 1 Nephi 18: 23 states "And it came to pass that after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land." That's all./QUOTE]Wow, exciting text.

"Days", huh? A "Storm".

Such a journey would take years.

I guess when Joseph wasn't stealing ideas from books like "Views of the Hebrews" he couldn't write his way out of a paper bag.

About Comoros and Moroni, you can speculate on that all you want. Critics are always suggesting Joseph could have some book or map or something or other. But to have every book, map, pamphlet, etc. that has been suggested, the Smith Family Library would have been pretty extensive.

Not really.

He didn't need to have a library. A look at a map, something that he should have been able to get easily, a general knowledge of the area around the "neck of land" and of course, "Views of the Hebrews" and the KJV of the Bible.

Fits whats in the Book of Mormon now doesn't it?

[_charity]

It really doesn't make much sense to speculate when the record is silent. We don't know which way the Lehite party went on the ship. The record simply doesn't say.

Au contraire mon amee. It makes every difference.

See, the standard apologetic retort about their belief that the Book of Mormon is true can be summed up in this phrase, "How can a farm boy from upstate NY get it right?"

The fact is he got nothing right now did he? If he was actually getting things right then the Book of Mormon would include little things like that, right?

Little things like what? There are no directions given. "Days" can mean any amount of time up to a year. Then you probably have to start counting in years and fractions thereof.

Besides all FAIR and FARMS do is speculate. Are you saying that they are

They get on the ship, there is a storm, and 1 Nephi 18: 23 states "And it came to pass that after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land." That's all./QUOTE]Wow, exciting text.

"Days", huh? A "Storm".

Such a journey would take years.

You really aren't very well read. It may interest you to know that a man named Thor Heyerdahl sailed across the Pacific ocean in under 4 months. No modern conveniences. But of course, our extremely well read and experienced farm boy would have known about the regular sailing vessel trips of his day. It certainly didn't take them years to sail across either the Atlantic or the Pacific. So we can't count that. But you really shouldn't make silly little commenets like "such a journey would take years."

I guess when Joseph wasn't stealing ideas from books like "Views of the Hebrews" he couldn't write his way out of a paper bag.

You really ought to get caught up on current anti-Mormon arguments. The clever anti's dropped the old "the Book of Mormon is junk and any 15 year old could have written it" argument years ago. That one has no legs anymore. Are you new at the anti-Mormon game?

Oh, yes, if you read both the Book of Mormon and the View of the Hebrews you would have known not to embarrass yourself like this.

About Comoros and Moroni, you can speculate on that all you want. Critics are always suggesting Joseph could have some book or map or something or other. But to have every book, map, pamphlet, etc. that has been suggested, the Smith Family Library would have been pretty extensive.

Not really.

He didn't need to have a library. A look at a map, something that he should have been able to get easily, a general knowledge of the area around the "neck of land" and of course, "Views of the Hebrews" and the KJV of the Bible.

Fits whats in the Book of Mormon now doesn't it?

You really are new at this. You obviously aren't aware of the totality of anti-Mormon arguments about some obscure piece of literature or map that Joseph Smith would absolutely had to have had access to in order to account for so many of those "lucky guesses" that yes, they would have filled a good sized library. It isn't just one.

There are really sharp people on this board, both LDS and critics and downright anti-Mormons. You will want to study up a little more before you make sophomoric posts.

[_the road to hana]

One other thing, the map of the East Coast of Africa which shows the Comorah(sp?) Islands and the city "Moroni" was pubplished in 1808. Was Joe Sr. a merchant of sorts? As for "upstate New York" being a reason why Joseph Jr. would not have been exposed to sea charts there would have been many ships form the Atlantic via the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Erie Canal (completed 1825) would have been a source for a young man to see that part of the sea and dream.

There was a time a few years back when a Google search using the keywords "joseph smith" and "comoros islands" would provide as one of the first responses a direct link to the official LDS website, the Joseph Smith papers, and there was information regarding a shipment of Joseph Smith, Sr. (ginseng, I believe) that never arrived, but shipwrecked on the Comoros Islands. That Joseph Smith Sr. engaged in a merchant venture that proved to be unsuccessful is clearly not in dispute, and is well documented even in pro-LDS sources.

It is not necessary to assume that the Smith family would have to have a voluminous library for Joseph Smith, Jr. to have heard of the Comoros Islands, particularly if they had a direct impact on his family's fortunes.

[_LCD2YOU]

You really aren't very well read. It may interest you to know that a man named Thor Heyerdahl sailed across the Pacific ocean in under 4 months. No modern conveniences. But of course, our extremely well read and experienced farm boy would have known about the regular sailing vessel trips of his day. It certainly didn't take them years to sail across either the Atlantic or the Pacific. So we can't count that. But you really shouldn't make silly little commenets like "such a journey would take years."

More on the rest of your interesting take but this grabbed my eye.

From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl we get this gem:

Heyerdahl became famous for his expedition on the Kon-Tiki in which he sailed by raft 4,300 miles (7,000 km) from South America to the Tuamotu Islands.

4300 miles and he knew where he was going. This is a far cry from the entire Pacific. Those islands are not even across the international date line. Just checking on a map will help you avoid embarrassment like that.

Those islands are about less than 1/2 way (closer to SA) between Australia and South America. Such a route would bring Lehi by Australia and New Zealand. So yes, YEARS to complete such a journey. Just extrapolating out, another 4 months to Autraila, 4 months back through Indonesia and 4 months back to the Arabian penninsula is 16 months under best case scenarios. Also remember that Thor knew where he was going, had a good idea where he was, could have been re-supplied at anytime and knew he could be rescued. Lehi and company didn't know any of that.

Also the Kon-Tiki was a purposely built vessell that was designed for the ocean. The best ocean going vessels at the time of Lehi were not even close to it's construction.

More on the rest of your post later.

[_LCD2YOU]

You really ought to get caught up on current anti-Mormon arguments. The clever anti's dropped the old "the Book of Mormon is junk and any 15 year old could have written it" argument years ago. That one has no legs anymore. Are you new at the anti-Mormon game?

Not quite true.

See the Mo arguemnet is "Can anyone else write a book like that?' And the answer is "Yes, it's called the Q'ran".

And despite your claims to the contrary, the issue keeps on coming up. It is not dead but actually quite robust and is far more a valid point where Joseph got his ideas then him seeing Moroni, Jesus or the Easter Bunny

Oh, yes, if you read both the Book of Mormon and the View of the Hebrews you would have known not to embarrass yourself like this.

I never said it was word for word. But as the supposed Hebrews in the Book of Mormon never followed dietary law or any other Hebrew Law that I can see it is interesting don't you think?

What was that about making unsupported assumptions again? Oh yes, that was you.

You really are new at this. You obviously aren't aware of the totality of anti-Mormon arguments about some obscure piece of literature or map that Joseph Smith would absolutely had to have had access to in order to account for so many of those "lucky guesses" that yes, they would have filled a good sized library. It isn't just one.

Did you read what I wrote? I stated that as Joe Jr. was wrong about so much he really didn't have much in the way of sources, just a few smttering of a map here, a story or two there, the KJV of the Bible and he at least read "A view of the Hebrews" once.

Pray tell what "lucky guesses" from Joe Jr. are you going on about?

The Book of Mormon is a story. Could you enlighten me, since I'm new and all according to you, and tell me what Joseph got right?

Seems like a non-existant document to me.

There are really sharp people on this board, both LDS and critics and downright anti-Mormons. You will want to study up a little more before you make sophomoric posts.

Which at my worse will pale in the true banality like what I just read above from you.

[_moksha]

About Comoros and Moroni, you can speculate on that all you want. Critics are always suggesting Joseph could have some book or map or something or other. But to have every book, map, pamphlet, etc. that has been suggested, the Smith Family Library would have been pretty extensive.

The Comoros Islands was where Captain Kidd was supposed to have buried his golden treasure,

[_BishopRic]

You really are new at this. You obviously aren't aware of the totality of anti-Mormon arguments about some obscure piece of literature or map that Joseph Smith would absolutely had to have had access to in order to account for so many of those "lucky guesses" that yes, they would have filled a good sized library. It isn't just one.

There are really sharp people on this board, both LDS and critics and downright anti-Mormons. You will want to study up a little more before you make sophomoric posts.

Charity, you're starting to sound a lot like your co-workers Pahoran and Selek.

That is NOT a compliment.

[_Runtu]

You really are new at this. You obviously aren't aware of the totality of anti-Mormon arguments about some obscure piece of literature or map that Joseph Smith would absolutely had to have had access to in order to account for so many of those "lucky guesses" that yes, they would have filled a good sized library. It isn't just one.

This is a ridiculous statement. All Joseph had to do was incorporate local mythology with a couple of place names from a common map. How hard is that? No library was necessary. Maybe you really are Mrs. Strawman.