You must assume that people in this time didn't have mapping. I don't know that this is a valid assumption. We certainly had maps that established the Isthmus of Darien as a "narrow neck" long before aerial photography was available. After all, the first attempt to build a canal there was in 1880 which pre-dates flight and photography by quite a few years.
That's a good point. I'll see what I can find on that. I don't remember reading any references to the Maya having advanced map making skills, but I could be wrong. They certainly had a very advanced calendrical system.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
But since it is known that a runner of today can cover 100 miles in a day, then it isn't out of possiblity that some special class of courier could have managed 150 miles in a day and a half.
But since it is known that a runner of today can cover 100 miles in a day, then it isn't out of possiblity that some special class of courier could have managed 150 miles in a day and a half.
I'd have to see evidence of a runner crossing 150 miles through mountainous terrain before considering its relevance to this conversation.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
But since it is known that a runner of today can cover 100 miles in a day, then it isn't out of possiblity that some special class of courier could have managed 150 miles in a day and a half.
I'd have to see evidence of a runner crossing 150 miles through mountainous terrain before considering its relevance to this conversation.
The link was posted by LCD2YOU about a modern day indigenous people, called the Tarahumara, who have individuals who can run a 100 miles in a day. They live in the Copper Canyon area of Mexico. LCD2YOU said this was good running territory. Look at the link I posted of the area these people live, and then tell me if you think this qualifies as "mountainous terrain."
Yes, you're right, that is mountainous terrain. I will consider that relevant evidence. Now what we have to do is find out if it's humanly possible to keep that rate up for longer than one day.
I also found an article on a Seattle man who ran 100 miles a day on trails.
So, yeah, I think we do have to accept that it's physically possible, even on mountainous terrains.
Each of these articles mentions that it takes roughly 17-19 hours of straight running to do it. No sleep, no rest. Can this be duplicated over two days? Or does it so tax the human body that it's just not physically possible to do it two days in a row?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote:Yes, you're right, that is mountainous terrain. I will consider that relevant evidence. Now what we have to do is find out if it's humanly possible to keep that rate up for longer than one day.
I also found an article on a Seattle man who ran 100 miles a day on trails.
So, yeah, I think we do have to accept that it's physically possible, even on mountainous terrains.
Each of these articles mentions that it takes roughly 17-19 hours of straight running to do it. No sleep, no rest. Can this be duplicated over two days? Or does it so tax the human body that it's just not physically possible to do it two days in a row?
Add this about the Tarahumara's abilities. From wiki: "Athletic prowess --
The Tarahumaras' word for themselves, Raramuri, means runners on foot in their native tongue, according to some early ethnographers like Norwegian Carl Lumholtz, though this interpretation has not been fully agreed upon. With widely dispersed settlements, these people developed a tradition of long-distance running for intervillage communication and transportation. The long-distance running tradition also has ceremonial and competitive aspects. Often, male runners kick wooden balls as they run in "foot throwing" competitions, and females use a stick and hoop. The foot throwing races are relays where wooden balls are kicked by the runners and relayed to the next runner, while teammates run ahead to the next relay point. These races can last anywhere from a few hours, for a short race, to a couple of days without a break. The Tarahumara also practice persistence hunting, using their ability to run extreme long distances (sometimes as far as 160km) to catch animals such as deer; the animals eventually tire and slow down, and the Raramuri get close enough to the animal to kill it.
But since it is known that a runner of today can cover 100 miles in a day, then it isn't out of possiblity that some special class of courier could have managed 150 miles in a day and a half.
I'd have to see evidence of a runner crossing 150 miles through mountainous terrain before considering its relevance to this conversation.
The 100 miles a day is when they run on relatively flat, featureless ground, not up and down mountains. Check where the runners actually run that 100 miles.
Several logistic issues:
1: Water. Running across the desert in 41C/105F with 5% humidity is bad but with enough water doable as I have done it. Running accross the Jungle in 35C/95F 85% humidity is nuts. When one runs in the dry desert, you can keep cool rather easily if you have water. In a humid jungle, sweating doesn't work as well.
2: Distance: At best, trails are going to be adding 5-10% to the distance when on relatively flat, low incline and featureless terrain. At worst with cut backs, obstacles and such you can double the actual distance needed to be covered. When combined with hills, you can get that to be more than 3 to 4 times the distance than the "crow flies".
Knowledge is Power
Power Corrupts
Study Hard and
Become EVIL!
You can't use relay races as evidence that ONE human being can run 150 miles in a day and a half (and this doesn't even take into account the time necessary for the canoe travel on the river).
Take a good look at that map I linked. The river is very winding. In addition, LCD is correct that there's no way that this would actually be 150 miles once you take into account that the runner would have to twist and turn through the trails (if the trails existed).
I'd like to find out what kind of trails exist in that area, if any. I do have Xmas chores to do today, though, so am not sure I can locate relevant information quickly. It is interesting, though, I will keep persisting.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote:Yes, you're right, that is mountainous terrain. I will consider that relevant evidence. Now what we have to do is find out if it's humanly possible to keep that rate up for longer than one day.
I also found an article on a Seattle man who ran 100 miles a day on trails.
So, yeah, I think we do have to accept that it's physically possible, even on mountainous terrains.
Each of these articles mentions that it takes roughly 17-19 hours of straight running to do it. No sleep, no rest. Can this be duplicated over two days? Or does it so tax the human body that it's just not physically possible to do it two days in a row?
Add this about the Tarahumara's abilities. From wiki: "Athletic prowess --
The Tarahumaras' word for themselves, Raramuri, means runners on foot in their native tongue, according to some early ethnographers like Norwegian Carl Lumholtz, though this interpretation has not been fully agreed upon. With widely dispersed settlements, these people developed a tradition of long-distance running for intervillage communication and transportation. The long-distance running tradition also has ceremonial and competitive aspects. Often, male runners kick wooden balls as they run in "foot throwing" competitions, and females use a stick and hoop. The foot throwing races are relays where wooden balls are kicked by the runners and relayed to the next runner, while teammates run ahead to the next relay point. These races can last anywhere from a few hours, for a short race, to a couple of days without a break. The Tarahumara also practice persistence hunting, using their ability to run extreme long distances (sometimes as far as 160km) to catch animals such as deer; the animals eventually tire and slow down, and the Raramuri get close enough to the animal to kill it.
100 miles total, but what is the "crow flying distance"
Also from here
[/b]The Tarahumara also practice persistence hunting, using their ability to run extreme long distances (sometimes as far as 160km)
As 160km=100miles, those guys are still not running 125miles(200km) as the crow flies. Even the guy in Seattle who does 100miles is running 100miles on a trail. He is not running 100miles point to point.
Knowledge is Power
Power Corrupts
Study Hard and
Become EVIL!
by the way, the FARMs article has one of the references wrong. It's really Helaman 4:7, not 3:7 -
"And there they did fortify against the Lamanites, from the west sea, even unto the east; it being a day's journey for a Nephite, on the line which they had fortified and stationed their armies to defend their north country."
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.