Spiritual trauma: did you have any?

[_karl61]

The spiritual trauma came when I was nineteen. I was very depressed, addicted to porn and started exhanging money for sex with girls on sunset blvd. I went to the church leaders telling them what was happening and that I needed help. They gave me a letter to appear in a court and I was excommunicated. As I looked back I went to a Church and told them I was sick - that is what church's are for - the sick and I was basically told we need to protect are selves from you and distance are selves from you. You are not like us. I always wonder what would have happened had they let me know that we are all sick and all in need of a physician. For twenty-five years I wondered around thinking I was a failure. I was in and out of hospitals, on medication, and couldn't hold down a normal relationship, managed to hold down one job for a decade but that eventually went up in flames.

The stuff that I was involved in is pretty much in the past because I'm a lot wiser and it's just a world of people that are depressed and sick. One lucky day I was researching excommuniation and saw a link to the FAIR board. I wrote a couple responses and asked some questions. I then ventured out on a branch and asked some tough questions and was immediately attacked by Selek which put me on the defensive. I started reading the responses that those supposing to be TBM's gave and I started getting a little scared because they were really shallow and they were not addressing the issues. I started to finally understand what they were trying to teach me in logic class about fallacies. I then started researching the answers that critics were giving and found out so much more of the church. To me actually to find the stuff the Joseph Smith did was actually a liberating experience. I'm not a bad person. The church hold's people to such a high standard that very few live it and many lie and say they are living it - and that's the active members. I know my TBM friends lied about the life they were living in their teens and twenties. I kind of wonder now if anyone really tells the truth about their real life. Again, the information about early church leaders, the raids at Davies counties, Joseph Smith marrying married women or their daughters while their husbands or father's were on a mission, was the best thing I had heard in many years. For the first time in over twenty five years I'm starting to feel good. My meds are kicking in, I just completed a college program and will be starting an internship next month. How green is my valley.

[_BishopRic]

Of course, maybe it isn't a brain she is missing, but a spine. If a woman wants to play victim, that she can't do anything to help herself, she doesn't get much sympathy from me. Hit me once, shame on you. Hit me twice, shame on me.

Spoken like a true disciple of Christ... a knowledgeable women with a background in psychology.

:-(

Shame on you.


~dancer!

And how does patting a woman on the head and treating her like she is a child, help her to be strong and in charge of her life? This is what happens when agency is denied.

Oh, you are so in another universe, Charity.

[_truth dancer]

And how does patting a woman on the head and treating her like she is a child, help her to be strong and in charge of her life? This is what happens when agency is denied.

Who is the heck said anything about "patting a woman on the head and treating her like she is a child"?

Only YOU Charity. Only YOU!

Can you just see it now, an abused woman comes to Jesus for help... he tells her it is her fault and to stop being like a child and start taking charge of her life. :-( Others try to help her and Jesus tells them to stop caring, demonstrating kindness, and "patting" her on the head...

Yep.. the true spirit of Christ. Just what it means to have compassion, care, and concern for others. Forget the, love one another idea. Forget what it means to be a disciple of Jesus.

:-(

You do a disservice to your church.



~dancer~


Hi Tori... thanks a bunch! ;-)

[_charity]

And how does patting a woman on the head and treating her like she is a child, help her to be strong and in charge of her life? This is what happens when agency is denied.

Oh, you are so in another universe, Charity.

Yeah, the cognitive behavioral universe, not the Freudianone. Rogerianism doesn't work, you know.

[_The Nehor]

And how does patting a woman on the head and treating her like she is a child, help her to be strong and in charge of her life? This is what happens when agency is denied.

Who is the heck said anything about "patting a woman on the head and treating her like she is a child"?

Only YOU Charity. Only YOU!

Can you just see it now, an abused woman comes to Jesus for help... he tells her it is her fault and to stop being like a child and start taking charge of her life. :-( Others try to help her and Jesus tells them to stop caring, demonstrating kindness, and "patting" her on the head...

Yep.. the true spirit of Christ. Just what it means to have compassion, care, and concern for others. Forget the, love one another idea. Forget what it means to be a disciple of Jesus.

:-(

You do a disservice to your church.



~dancer~


Hi Tori... thanks a bunch! ;-)

My evidence is anecdotal but it is possible to point out to someone that what happened is partially their own fault and still show compassion, care, and concern. My parents used to do it all the time. God still does.

[_Inconceivable]

And how does patting a woman on the head and treating her like she is a child, help her to be strong and in charge of her life? This is what happens when agency is denied.

Oh, you are so in another universe, Charity.

Yeah, the cognitive behavioral universe, not the Freudianone. Rogerianism doesn't work, you know.

Charity, you are truly a tool, deficit of understanding with all of your getting. There is a famine of empathy within you.

Psych degree. Truly inconceivable

[_beastie]

I, too, have a very hard time conceiving that someone who has supposedly studied (and taught!) psychology would form such a, frankly, ignorant view of the dynamics of abuse to simple-mindedly proclaim that all the victim has to do is grow a spine and she bears responsibility for the abuse, as well, (after the first time).

Charity, you obviously have no understanding or background in the dynamics of abusive relationships. I really don't believe you've studied it at all.

AND your stance that a victim of abuse should immediately leave (which I agree with, by the way, except I understand the dynamics of abusive relationships enough to understand how victims get caught in a trap, unlike you, who, apparently, suffers from a dearth of imagination as well as background knowledge on the subject) contradicts the position that church leaders consistently provide to victims of abuse (with some exceptions). Unless their counsel has changed dramatically over the last decade, victims of abuse who sought help from a bishop usually were first advised to try to find ways to ameloriate the situation and to help the abuser repent and change. I still have in my possession a church manual on marriage which lists abuse as one of the problems in a marriage that can be overcome by repentance and forgiveness. As a victim of verbal abuse (a phenomenon I feel safe in guessing you also know very little about), this was the advice given to me by every single church leader I went to for help. This was the same advice given to other victims I'd known over years, including some who suffered physical as well as verbal abuse. Of course, these leaders did not have psychological training like you claim to have, so their ignorance is more understandable.

Yes, it is entirely believable that these victims of abuse in bishopRic's ward all went to him for help as soon as he was put in as a temp, so to speak. They probably had gone to every other bishop they had, as well, and were never able to obtain real help. Reality is that bishops aren't in a position to offer real help to victims of abuse or any other individual dealing with serious life issues, but the sad fantasy they are taught in the church tells them otherwise. It's just sad and pointless that they keep going to church leaders for help instead of seeking real help. But that's what they've been taught to do.

[_truth dancer]

My evidence is anecdotal but it is possible to point out to someone that what happened is partially their own fault and still show compassion, care, and concern. My parents used to do it all the time. God still does.

First, when a person abuses another it is the fault of the abuser. No one else.

Domestic violence is much more complicated than the ridiculous notion that a woman survivor of abuse is actually a sad pathetic, stupid, weak, and spineless female who doesn't have the strength to leave her husband.

Beastie is correct in her description of how LDS leaders are taught to handle the situation, (unless things have changed in the last few months). As recent as last September I spoke to a Bishop hoping to "counsel" a woman who went to him in hopes of getting help with her abusive LDS husband.

Finally, no offense Nehor, and with all due respect, I have serious doubts it is God that is talking to you. ;-) I know too many other folks who believe they are one of those special folks who God talks to. Seems the voices are something other than the God of the Universe. (smile)

~dancer~

[_The Nehor]

My evidence is anecdotal but it is possible to point out to someone that what happened is partially their own fault and still show compassion, care, and concern. My parents used to do it all the time. God still does.

First, when a person abuses another it is the fault of the abuser. No one else.

Domestic violence is much more complicated than the ridiculous notion that a woman survivor of abuse is actually a sad pathetic, stupid, weak, and spineless female who doesn't have the strength to leave her husband.

Beastie is correct in her description of how LDS leaders are taught to handle the situation, (unless things have changed in the last few months). As recent as last September I spoke to a Bishop hoping to "counsel" a woman who went to him in hopes of getting help with her abusive LDS husband.

Finally, no offense Nehor, and with all due respect, I have serious doubts it is God that is talking to you. ;-) I know too many other folks who believe they are one of those special folks who God talks to. Seems the voices are something other than the God of the Universe. (smile)

~dancer~

I think that when a person is abused that it is almost entirely the abuser's fault. The abuser is the guilty one. However, a failure to analyze your own life when you fall into that kind of trap is stupid. Too many people I know that end up in tons of bad relationships (not even necessarily abusive) tend to wonder, "Why does this always happen to me?" Everyone around them could easily tell them. If you've been attacked and beaten to a bloody pulp the last time you've gone to a nightclub if you go again getting beat up again does not change that the attacker bears the bulk of the responsibility. It does make me think you're an idiot.

Abusive relationships are more complicated (and more dangerous) than the above scenarios of course. I would advise people to get advice from God in addition to seeking help from their Bishop. The Voices have very good ideas. ;)

[_beastie]

I think that when a person is abused that it is almost entirely the abuser's fault. The abuser is the guilty one. However, a failure to analyze your own life when you fall into that kind of trap is stupid. Too many people I know that end up in tons of bad relationships (not even necessarily abusive) tend to wonder, "Why does this always happen to me?" Everyone around them could easily tell them. If you've been attacked and beaten to a bloody pulp the last time you've gone to a nightclub if you go again getting beat up again does not change that the attacker bears the bulk of the responsibility. It does make me think you're an idiot.

Abusive relationships are more complicated (and more dangerous) than the above scenarios of course. I would advise people to get advice from God in addition to seeking help from their Bishop. The Voices have very good ideas. ;)

And what in the world leads you to conclude that the victims of abuse aren't analyzing their own life? Good grief, Nehor. You're another one who knows nothing about the dynamics of abuse. Victims of abuse often spend an inordinate amount of time "analyzing" their own life. In some ways, the abuser encourages this as well. The victim of abuse wonders what's wrong with her (or him, in some cases). Did he/she "invite" abuse? Why can't he/she find a way out? etc etc

What neither you nor Charity seem to fully recognize is how the victim of abuse becomes 'entrained' by the abuser. She/he begins to view him/herself as powerless, hopeless, worthless. He or she is being carefully taught to view him/herself in those ways. If you've never experienced abuse and haven't studied the dynamics of abusive relationship, you may think it's "stupid" for the victim to "allow" him or herself to be so entrained. But it isn't stupidity at all. It's the dynamics of abusive relationships.

Your advice to get help from their bishop and God goes along nicely with the question in the OP. This is exactly what I did during my marriage, up until the very last two years (at which time I lost belief). I went to every bishop I ever had, and I prayed relentlessly. The "answer" I received from both courts were answers you would deem "stupid". I was told by bishops and by "God" (ie, the feelings and thoughts I had during prayer and meditation on the problem) that I should be loving and forgiving, should do my best to meet my husband's needs so he would feel safe and loved. I should be less sensitive and willing to overlook his unkindness.

These answers led me to stay in a horrible, verbally abusive marriage for fifteen years. Fifteen years, during which time all the love and forgiveness I could muster did nothing to ameliorate the situation. Fifteen years - more than enough time to bring three children into an abusive home environment, the effects of which they still struggle with.