The sex thread

[_harmony]

Okay, since I managed to inadvertantly derail the thread about the latest MAD bannings, perhaps I can redeem myself by moving the sex discussion to another thread.

Thus...

In my admittedly small sample of married LDS TBM women, the general consensus is that LDS men are pretty low on the lover scale. Words they used include:

unimaginative
unromantic
insensitive
some took too long
some were too quick
unskilled/lacking finesse and technique

Technique wasn't the biggest issue, although it definitely was an issue with a few of the women. Mostly, they wanted romance, and they got none. Obviously this was not a representative sample of women in the church. It was heavily laden with women in their 40's and 50's, with medium to large to extremely large families. Only a few were in their 20's and 30's. Some of the women were considerably larger than they'd been when they got married, but some worked very hard to maintain a nice shape. That didn't seem to be a factor, since I heard the same complaints from the nicely shaped as I heard from the round. Generally speaking, their dreams and expectations from young womanhood had been replaced by a resigned enduring to the end. Dreams of romantic candlelit dinners and torrid sex afterwards with their husbands gave way to the reality of multiple cranky children and a husband who worked hard in the fields all day and was tired at night. Sex was an afterthought for some, a duty for others, and endured with little passion by nearly all.

They didn't blame their husbands; they just lamented that their efforts in the romance department for the most part were either ignored or met with halfhearted enthusiasm. For the most part, the women were resigned to their lot in life, at least none of them was considering having an affair in order to fulfill some sexual fantasy. Any fantasies they had, they wanted their men to fulfill, but that wasn't happening.

It's too bad a little adventuresomeness in bed can't be addressed in general priesthood meeting. The men might actually stay awake for that talk!

[_Gadianton]

Have you compared that to a sample of women married to non-TBM men?

[Guest]

So, the TBM wives want romance and not so much the sexual aspect of the relationship? I think often times the more sex you have then the romance comes naturally. There is NO way in hell you can be crabby, grumpy, or ill-spirited if you know you're getting nookie that night. Gives both parties a reason to be kind and loving to one another.

Unless of course one of them is a total a-hole -- in that case all bets are off.

[_Yoda]

Have you compared that to a sample of women married to non-TBM men?

I think that married women of non-TBM men can certainly have similar issues.

I think the compelling difference within the LDS culture is that neither women or men are encouraged to explore their own bodies. We are supposed to remain chaste and as far away from sex as possible. Then, when you're married, you're supposed to "flip a switch", and anything goes. There are other Christian communities where the culture is similar, but it seems to me that it is much more ingrained within the LDS culture.

[_Moniker]

Have you compared that to a sample of women married to non-TBM men?

I think that married women of non-TBM men can certainly have similar issues.

I agree.

[_chonguey]

I think a lot of it has to do with the emphasis in church culture that is clearly sexually repressive, despite Coggins insistence this is not the case.

Those of us who grew up in the church experienced it first hand from the day we became aware of "sexuality."

Take for example the famous scripture mastery verse "The natural man is an enemy to God."

When masturbation is demonized as "self-abuse" it causes dysfunction. Your own body becomes your enemy. Your biological impulses are evil.

If you have the misfortune of being born LDS and gay, you will only hear demonization of your romantic desires. Read the "Miracle of Forgiveness." Anyone who is gay will come away with an extreme sense of self loathing and confusion.

Erotic imagery or literature (pornography) was the foundation of all other sins. If you looked at porn, according to church culture, you were well on your way to being a deviant and a reprobate.

When the church teaches that only God/The Church has the right to give people the "okay" to sexually express themselves via "Temple Marriage" it fosters a sense that ones own body does not belong to them. Rather the message is "WE control your sexuality."

Never in my life in the LDS church was I encouraged to be sexually aware on my own. It was owned by God/The Church. When I was married in the Temple, then and only then would God be happy with my sexuality.

Sexuality was reserved only for God's purposes. The right for a man or a woman to pursue their own happiness through safe, sane, responsible sexual exploration was NOT an option. In fact, it was "The Sin next to Murder."

Is it any wonder that Coggins7 has such a warped view of what sexuality is? He still sees it as the sole prerogative of God/The Church to determine. Sexual Free Agency is an illusion in LDS culture. If you don't "do it" like they say, you are a sinner who is one step away from being a murder.

Is it any wonder so many LDS couples are sexually dysfunctional?

[_harmony]

Then, when you're married, you're supposed to "flip a switch", and anything goes.

Uh... no. "Anything" does not go. Sex is only acceptable if it's acceptable to the 15 old men in SLC. So... take out oral. Take out doing it while watching R rated movies. Take out sexual talk. Heck, take out skinny dipping in your own hot tub in the back yard. No wonder there's no spontenaity. And no wonder those women were so resigned to enduring to the end.

Marriage should not have to be something that is only endured!

And I think you're onto something, with the whole "don't explore your bodies" thing.

[_Scottie]

To repeat what I posted on the other thread...

Great thread....LOVIN' the sex talk.

You guys know this is inhumanely cruel to do to Bond, Nehor and I, right???? What with all of our non-self imposed celibacy and all...

Bond and Nehor, isn't it just ironic that the best lovers (that would be us 3) are the ones without women to please???

I propose for all the women on the board to "try" all the men on the board and give us letter grades. All in favor??

I speak firsts!!

[_huckelberry]

I do not think that the phrase natural man in Paul has much to do with sexuality. But a related observation might be that the natural man has absolutely no knowledge of femine desires, responses, emotions and romance. Unless some teaching from a woman occurs that absolute zero knowledge remains absolutely no knowledge. this is not complicated a mans sense of romance emotion and desire are a mans while a womans is a womans. They have to share to create an overlap.

It is possible that a man might think fancy dinners have more to do with some asexual performance than with romance. How is that divide crossed? He doesn't understand, she doesn't understand, he is unfeeling, shes a cold fish. etc etc.

Well, there is a lot of potential for finding overlapping desires, makes sense to seek.

[_Scottie]

I do not think that the phrase natural man in Paul has much to do with sexuality. But a related observation might be that the natural man has absolutely no knowledge of femine desires, responses, emotions and romance. Unless some teaching from a woman occurs that absolute zero knowledge remains absolutely no knowledge. this is not complicated a mans sense of romance emotion and desire are a mans while a womans is a womans. They have to share to create an overlap.

It is possible that a man might think fancy dinners have more to do with some asexual performance than with romance. How is that divide crossed? He doesn't understand, she doesn't understand, he is unfeeling, she's a cold fish. etc etc.

Well, there is a lot of potential for finding overlapping desires, makes sense to seek.

Yeah, God's little joke. By the time a man figures women out, he's past his sexual prime, and the woman is just entering hers.

In the immortal words of Eddie Murphey, "HA HA!! Very funny, mutha f**ker!!"