Spiritual trauma: did you have any?

[_Trevor]

YES! And I believe it has to do with our desire to feel safe, our desire to believe we can CONTROL our lives. It is frightening to fully recognize how much of life is beyond our control. (and, of course, I believe the desire to control is part of what creates religion)

So much is invested in anxiety management.

[_beastie]

Well, as you know, I had a history with the feminist movement. Worked quite hard my entire life NOT to be victimized, in any capacity. Felt an incredible amount of pride connected to the feminine. This, for me, perhaps, was why it was difficult to find myself in the situation I found myself in and to grasp that yes, I was indeed a victim. No amount of rationalization, denial, or attempts to twist the situation into empowerment could change the fact that a woman that had spent most of her life helping victims rise above became one herself. That was difficult to admit to others -- more so to admit to myself.

Me too, prior to my LDS conversion. And I was always a strong woman - I never "needed" a man. I viewed boyfriends as optional, and often dumped them if they got too needy. I had never been mistreated by a man before and never imagined I would "allow" it. And this works against us, in a way - it's just so hard to really accept that this has happened to YOU. So your desire to NOT see yourself as powerless in the situation works against you, and the abuser USES that against you. When the abuser insists that it's YOUR fault, you're almost eager to partly believe it, because then, at least, you would still have POWER to change things. This is the magical thinking I referred to earlier that is easier to recognize in children, but still is evident in adult victims of abuse. It is so horrific, so threatening to your life, to truly admit that your husband (or father, or mother, or wife) is going to continue mistreating you and there is nothing you can to do stop it that your mind creates an alternate reality - maybe I could stop it if I did X, Y, or Z. Because it still feels better to imagine that your partly at fault than admitting you have absolutely NO CONTROL over the situation. Being powerless is so threatening that our minds will do just about anything to avoid admitting this reality.

That Charity doesn't understand this - that nothing makes her fundamentally different, or "other", than a victim of abuse except life's circumstances - shows me she really has only a superficial understanding of the cycle of abuse.

[_Moniker]

Moniker,

I relate so strongly to what you're saying it brings tears to my eyes.

Well, I have tears in my eyes as well, just because it's so comforting to talk to someone else that relates.

Abusers take advantage of our STRENGTHS. They know we want to nurture, to love. So they know they can talk us into giving them chance after chance after chance. I will never forget one incident in particular, with my ex. The children and I were still living in our home, he was staying with his mother, but since his shop was in our basement he came to our house daily. Of course this situation could not continue and I was looking for another place to live, which was hard on me because I didn't have the money to do it and would have to ask my father for help. I hated having to ask for money. But anyway, on this particular day he actually watched the kids for me so I could go to the grocery store (this was very unusual, normally I was left to juggle the kids and chores all alone). When I came back home, my oldest son came out (he was around ten at the time) and told me that daddy was sick and needed an ambulance. But it was odd, because my oldest son wasn't in a panic - he "knew" what was going on before I did. So I rushed into the house, and my husband was collapsed on the living room floor. I was frightened and concerned, but my husband did not want an ambulance. After I sat by him and talked to him for a while, he was able to get himself together enough to get off the floor and talk some more. I took him outside so the children wouldn't have to continue witnessing this. He just disintegrated before my eyes - it was heart wrenching. It was one of the very few moments in our marriage - probably in his life - where he let his mask completely drop and let me see "him". And he was just a puddle of helplessness and fear. He even admitted that he knew something was very wrong with him, but he didn't know what, and that I was right to leave him because I deserved better. I tried to contact his psychiatrist, because by that time he was going to therapy - marital and individual. Shortly thereafter he was diagnosed with bipolar and his doctor told me it sounded like he had a psychotic break. But it was heartbreaking. He was the most broken human being I'd ever seen. Yet, by that point, I knew I could not rescue him.

Well, my husband has done the break a few times now. Then the fury comes back. Yet, while he's doing that, I too am projecting fury and puddles of despair with another man as well. Sometimes I wonder if I'm broken, too? I know what I'm going through is "normal" in the sense of other women relating and describing their situations when they leave their husbands. Yet, too often, as late, I feel as much of an emotional basket case (directed to someone other than my husband) as he is. Which is rather disconcerting to me.

I wish I'd left him without the other drama that has been self inflicted in my life. Yet, perhaps that's just what I needed?

Shortly after that he resumed the mask and went back on the attack, even to the point of threatening to kill me. But I will never forget that one moment where he let me see the real him, and how broken he was. It must be frightening to feel that complete brokenness inside, and yet not have the courage to face it and try to fix it. But this was the internal demon that he projected onto me, and then attacked ME.

Well mine is bouncing back and forth as well. Often. And I too am experiencing emotional upheaval. It's really quite exhausting. Yet, I know I'm seeking help and hope to continue to find the strength to persevere

.
I really do not think anyone can really understand these relationships unless they've lived it, or have worked closely with victims of abuse. So in the meantime, it feels better to think of us as weak and stupid.

I agree. Which is why I enjoy talking to you so much about the dynamics involved.

[_Moniker]

Well, as you know, I had a history with the feminist movement. Worked quite hard my entire life NOT to be victimized, in any capacity. Felt an incredible amount of pride connected to the feminine. This, for me, perhaps, was why it was difficult to find myself in the situation I found myself in and to grasp that yes, I was indeed a victim. No amount of rationalization, denial, or attempts to twist the situation into empowerment could change the fact that a woman that had spent most of her life helping victims rise above became one herself. That was difficult to admit to others -- more so to admit to myself.

Me too, prior to my LDS conversion. And I was always a strong woman - I never "needed" a man. I viewed boyfriends as optional, and often dumped them if they got too needy. I had never been mistreated by a man before and never imagined I would "allow" it. And this works against us, in a way - it's just so hard to really accept that this has happened to YOU. So your desire to NOT see yourself as powerless in the situation works against you, and the abuser USES that against you. When the abuser insists that it's YOUR fault, you're almost eager to partly believe it, because then, at least, you would still have POWER to change things. This is the magical thinking I referred to earlier that is easier to recognize in children, but still is evident in adult victims of abuse. It is so horrific, so threatening to your life, to truly admit that your husband (or father, or mother, or wife) is going to continue mistreating you and there is nothing you can to do stop it that your mind creates an alternate reality - maybe I could stop it if I did X, Y, or Z. Because it still feels better to imagine that your partly at fault than admitting you have absolutely NO CONTROL over the situation. Being powerless is so threatening that our minds will do just about anything to avoid admitting this reality.

That Charity doesn't understand this - that nothing makes her fundamentally different, or "other", than a victim of abuse except life's circumstances - shows me she really has only a superficial understanding of the cycle of abuse.

I never needed, longed for, or dreamed of men either. How I recognized that something was desperately wrong with my life was when I was confronted with the realization that I longed for a man in a way that had never been experienced by me before. This was so startling and disturbing to me that I instinctively recognized that something was horridly wrong with my life.

You're so right about the dynamics of power. The most difficult thing for me to accept was that I was powerless. No matter what my husband threw at me I still felt rather strong, twisted it into power, never show fear, and continued to thrust my chest out with my head held high. He was NOT going to beat me down -- it was almost as if it was an invitation to a challenge. I would NOT be beaten by a man! Then recognizing how weak I felt when another man showed me a bit of attention and concern really was the catalyst to recognize how absurdly weak I truly was. It was the most intense, emotionally confusing few months of my entire life.

[_beastie]

Well, I have tears in my eyes as well, just because it's so comforting to talk to someone else that relates.

I'm so glad. Posting on internet boards often seems pointless, so when, every now and then, you really connect and maybe even help someone are moments that make it all worthwhile.

Well, my husband has done the break a few times now. Then the fury comes back. Yet, while he's doing that, I too am projecting fury and puddles of despair with another man as well. Sometimes I wonder if I'm broken, too? I know what I'm going through is "normal" in the sense of other women relating and describing their situations when they leave their husbands. Yet, too often, as late, I feel as much of an emotional basket case (directed to someone other than my husband) as he is. Which is rather disconcerting to me.

I wish I'd left him without the other drama that has been self inflicted in my life. Yet, perhaps that's just what I needed?

That's another interesting phenomenon. Often women who were victims of abuse have difficulty making the break until they begin to feel - or feel the hope of - an emotional connection to another man. Maybe we're trying to re-find ourselves? Our "self" was so defined by our abuser, when you actually leave, it almost feels like starting life all over again. Trying to figure out who the heck you are. And since women tend to be more geared toward relationships in general, that often manifests in a new relationship (and of course, it's just common in general for the recently divorced or separated to "rebound".) But, whatever the dynamics behind it are, it's frustrating and disconcerting. Eventually you find your own voice again, and the madness abates.

Well mine is bouncing back and forth as well. Often. And I too am experiencing emotional upheaval. It's really quite exhausting. Yet, I know I'm seeking help and hope to continue to find the strength to persevere

I have no doubt you are strong enough to persevere. That doesn't mean it's not going to tough for quite a while, and then, of course, you will continue to have to deal with your exhusband's impact on your children... which is a whole other story. But you will make it. You are a survivor. And you will also help your children heal. I often comforted myself with studies that showed that as long as children have at least ONE stable home and parent, they have a good chance of doing fairly well, in the end. My kids still had to, and still have to, deal with their dad's nuttiness, but the majority of their time was spent with ME, in a stable home with a stable, loving parent. And while they each have had their issues and challenges, they're going to make it. The good part is that now they're old enough to frequently express to me how grateful they are to me, as well. That's nice to hear. You'll hear that, too, one day.

I agree. Which is why I enjoy talking to you so much about the dynamics involved.

Amen to that.

[_beastie]

I never needed, longed for, or dreamed of men either. How I recognized that something was desperately wrong with my life was when I was confronted with the realization that I longed for a man in a way that had never been experienced by me before. This was so startling and disturbing to me that I instinctively recognized that something was horridly wrong with my life.

You're so right about the dynamics of power. The most difficult thing for me to accept was that I was powerless. No matter what my husband threw at me I still felt rather strong, twisted it into power, never show fear, and continued to thrust my chest out with my head held high. He was NOT going to beat me down -- it was almost as if it was an invitation to a challenge. I would NOT be beaten by a man! Then recognizing how weak I felt when another man showed me a bit of attention and concern really was the catalyst to recognize how absurdly weak I truly was. It was the most intense, emotionally confusing few months of my entire life.

You already know how much I relate to that. But really, if someone has just crawled through a desert, panting with thirst, he/she is going to grab the first glass of water he/she sees... even if it's a mirage.

And now I've got to get off this chair, I'm starting to go numb!!!

[_wenglund]

Rather than discussing perception about abuse in snide and an accusitory ways, may I suggest de-personalizing things by speaking about specific concepts?

To that end, may I ask a couple of conceptual questions:

1. Generally speaking, in abusive situations (or within the cycle of abuse), is there a disparity in power, and if so where is the locus (or majority) of power? (Does it reside with the abuser or the abused?)

2. Generally speaking, what typically is the nature of that power? (Is it the use of fear, confusion, and or other things?)

3. Generally speaking, what factors contribute to the where the locus of power resides? (Is it entirely usurped and emposed, or is there a measure of granting or abrigation?)

4. What factors contribute to why it is that the power is exercised? (Is it about control? And if so, generally speaking what are the areas of life being controlled?)

I ask these questions in order to establish a philosophical foundation for understanding the nature of abuse, which can then be utilized in successfully extricating people from the destructive cycle of abuse.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_charity]

About your mission: Happiness is not the result of our circumstances Happiness comes from within. Last year I spent a month in a rehab center because I broke my leg and had to be taught how to deal with no weight bearing for 3 months. Rehab is not a place you would chose to be. The other patients were unpleasant because they were unhappy and didn't want to be there, and that made the staff unpleasant because they didn't like taking care of people who were criticizing them and griping about the facilties, and the food, and the care, etc. The rehab center my insurance company would pay for was some distance from my home, and that made it hard for people who were not close friends and family to visit. And to make things pretty bad, I didn't have access to a computer. But I wasn't miserable every single hour of every day. Maybe your mission wasn't all joy and finding people who told you marvelous stories about praying to know the truth, and then you knocked on their door. But if you were miserable every day, it wasn't the mission that did it. It was your own attitude.

Amazing. It’s amazing you can assert this at the same time as telling me that being treated badly and feeling badly in my marriage should have been sufficient reason to end it.

See what I mean? You aren't grasping! If a man is abusing his wife, if she has been listening to the prophet, she knows he isn't doing what he should be doing! She knows it isn't her fault. IF she has been listening.

We could get into a discussion about choices. The trial preceeds the miracle. Maybe you gave up just a little too soon. Did that thought ever occur to you?

Oh. My. God. Are you now telling me I should NOT have divorced my husband, that I gave up too soon????

Are you incapable of perceiving QUESTION MARKS? I asked. I didn't tell. That is basic reading comprehension. That is why we have punctuation marks.

I think there are some men who are going to be held accountable for not giving you more help and support.

I judge them less harshly than you do. They did not understand verbal abuse. They should never have been placed in a situation wherein they were attempting to counsel people with serious life issues.

But they should have been more sensitive to the Spirit. That is their calling.

Because she was dumb. She thought she could change him. It took her 3 years to figure out that wasn't possible.

There you go. She was dumb. You finally said the word that I knew was lurking on the tip of your tongue all along.

Most teenagers are pretty dumb. We hopefully mature and learn. But late teens are not the smartest times of our lives. She married at 18. Against advice.

And yet you just told me I might have given up too soon??? /quote]

Again, I refer you to my post to look at and SEE the ? mark.

But aside from your predictable inability to have consistency even on one given thread, let’s review how you really feel about victims of abuse, who are still trapped in the cycle of abuse.

They are weak. They don’t have a spine. They are dumb.

Dumb in the sense that they have notions such as "I can change him." Yes. But then many people have erroneous ideas. We are all dumb.

They are making choices that aren't in their own best intersts. Many of those choices are made because they are afraid of change. Many of those choices are made because they anticpate loss of benefits. If they are making choices based on their own perceived benefit and ignoring the cost to their children, then I see that as weak. I don't know that many women do that, but I do know of several who did.

[_charity]

For beastie and others,

Today in our fifth Sunday combined meeting in the third hour, our bishop went through some sections of the Church Handbook of Instructions with us.

The pertinent part of what he talked about concerned abuse. He read from the CHI and paraphrased is that no amount of abuse is to be tolerated. Not of parents to children, or spouse to spouse, both directions. That leaders are to act on any report to them of abuse. There is a special support from Salt Lake for this. While discussing this section, he also expressed his strong opinions on the matter, a zero tolerance policy.

I don't know what the past CHI isntructions were. I suspect that as the culture changed, the Church rose to meet the needs.

Have you ever watched the movie "McClintock?" A John Wayne movie. It was a popular movie, even with women, when it was out in 1963. Now it is seen as disgusting for the way domestic violence is portrayed a funny, and acceptable.

I am really sorry that you did not receive the help and support you needed from Church leaders. And even further sorry that this lack of support cause your crisis of faith.

[_Trevor]

I am really sorry that you did not receive the help and support you needed from Church leaders. And even further sorry that this lack of support cause your crisis of faith.

The unfortunate thing is that the problem is systemic. It cannot be reduced with a couple of stray problems with a few inexperienced or incompetent leaders.